2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/7/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):

I mentioned #4 in relation to #3.   I think he walked because he choose not to swing not because he always hit the ball when he swung.   I agree not making an out is a good thing but, as I said, I view the "job" of the 3/4/5 guys differently than I do the 1/2 or even the 8/9.   "Pass it to the next guy" isn't what I want on the minds of my 3/4/5 batters. 

Martinez's peak years fell well within the careers of A-Rod/Griffey.   Let's not pretend they didn't. 

Finally, we're not discussing Jeter's HOF-qualifications.  He's still active.  Let's stay on topic.

Retarded. The job of all hitters is to not make outs. The alternative to a walk is usually not a hit, it's usually an out. Walking less makes hitters less valuable, even in the 3/4/5 slot.

The idea is to score runs.   First and third, two outs.   Do you want Edgar Martinez swinging or passing it on to Mike Blauser?
Again, it's probably A-Rod or Griffey.
I thought Martinez's first season with A-Rod was when he was 33?    Are you saying that's no longer a pertinent point?
2/7/2014 1:11 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/7/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):

I mentioned #4 in relation to #3.   I think he walked because he choose not to swing not because he always hit the ball when he swung.   I agree not making an out is a good thing but, as I said, I view the "job" of the 3/4/5 guys differently than I do the 1/2 or even the 8/9.   "Pass it to the next guy" isn't what I want on the minds of my 3/4/5 batters. 

Martinez's peak years fell well within the careers of A-Rod/Griffey.   Let's not pretend they didn't. 

Finally, we're not discussing Jeter's HOF-qualifications.  He's still active.  Let's stay on topic.

Retarded. The job of all hitters is to not make outs. The alternative to a walk is usually not a hit, it's usually an out. Walking less makes hitters less valuable, even in the 3/4/5 slot.

The idea is to score runs.   First and third, two outs.   Do you want Edgar Martinez swinging or passing it on to Mike Blauser?
Again, it's probably A-Rod or Griffey.
I thought Martinez's first season with A-Rod was when he was 33?    Are you saying that's no longer a pertinent point?
His peak years mostly included ARod, like you said.  I didn't argue that point.
2/7/2014 1:16 PM
burnsy483
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Tell me more about how much better Mantle was at his role as middle of the order hitter.  Is there a "Hall of Walks?" Edgar can join him, even though he didn't walk as much and put he ball in play much more often.
2/7/2014 1:17 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/7/2014 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):

I mentioned #4 in relation to #3.   I think he walked because he choose not to swing not because he always hit the ball when he swung.   I agree not making an out is a good thing but, as I said, I view the "job" of the 3/4/5 guys differently than I do the 1/2 or even the 8/9.   "Pass it to the next guy" isn't what I want on the minds of my 3/4/5 batters. 

Martinez's peak years fell well within the careers of A-Rod/Griffey.   Let's not pretend they didn't. 

Finally, we're not discussing Jeter's HOF-qualifications.  He's still active.  Let's stay on topic.

Retarded. The job of all hitters is to no make outs. The alternative to a walk is usually not a hit, it's usually an out. Walking less makes hitters less valuable, even in the 3/4/5 slot.

I think he's mostly trolling, but it's not completely retarded, I get what he's saying.  That guy who hits .260/.370/.400 is probably someone I want batting 2nd, not 5th, when more guys are likely on base.  But that wasn't Edgar.
True. In his prime Edgar hit 356/479/638 and for his career he hit 312/418/575. That's someone you want batting ANYWHERE in your lineup.
2/7/2014 1:19 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/7/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):

I mentioned #4 in relation to #3.   I think he walked because he choose not to swing not because he always hit the ball when he swung.   I agree not making an out is a good thing but, as I said, I view the "job" of the 3/4/5 guys differently than I do the 1/2 or even the 8/9.   "Pass it to the next guy" isn't what I want on the minds of my 3/4/5 batters. 

Martinez's peak years fell well within the careers of A-Rod/Griffey.   Let's not pretend they didn't. 

Finally, we're not discussing Jeter's HOF-qualifications.  He's still active.  Let's stay on topic.

Retarded. The job of all hitters is to not make outs. The alternative to a walk is usually not a hit, it's usually an out. Walking less makes hitters less valuable, even in the 3/4/5 slot.

The idea is to score runs.   First and third, two outs.   Do you want Edgar Martinez swinging or passing it on to Mike Blauser?
Again, it's probably A-Rod or Griffey.
Random box from 1998.   I've always assumed EM hit after Griffey/A-Rod once A-Rod was an established star.    This indicates he did.  Maybe I'm wrong.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA199805050.shtml

He was passing it on to Dan Wilson and Russ Davis. 
2/7/2014 1:20 PM
burnsy483
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Looks like ARod batted 2nd for Seattle.  Fine, I'm wrong.  I figured those guys hit 3-5.

Edgar was a beast when he swung the bat.  If you're going to rip on him for walking, I don't know what to say.  Walking is a great thing to do.  Mantle did a shitton of it.

In your 1st and 3rd and 2 outs and pass on to Davis scenario, the chances of Seattle winning the game go up when he walks.

2/7/2014 1:23 PM
MikeT23
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Again, who do you want swinging?  Martinez, Wilson or Davis?

2/7/2014 1:31 PM
bad_luck
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What you want is the best chance to win the game. Martinez getting on base increases your chances.
2/7/2014 1:33 PM
MikeT23
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FWIW, if the order is Martinez, Griffey, Rodriguez or Martinez, Rodriguez, Griffey, hell yeah, take the walk. 

Several players have been criticized for not "expanding their strike zone".  Paul O'Neill was run out of Cincy, I think by Piniella, for that reason.   It really depends on who else is in the line-up.
2/7/2014 1:34 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Again, who do you want swinging?  Martinez, Wilson or Davis?

Again, I want to win the game.  Whatever gives me the best chance of winning, I want.  If EM takes 5 curveballs and walks, fine, my odds of winning go up.

I get your argument.  I don't get the idea that EM was "looking to walk" however.  He was looking to walk the same way Mantle was.
2/7/2014 1:34 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:33:00 PM (view original):
What you want is the best chance to win the game. Martinez getting on base increases your chances.
Because Dan Wilson was such a good hitter?

I think you're being intentionally dumb.   You could argue "How many times did that situation present itself?" and I'd have no answer.   But to pretend you want Martinez to walk so Dan Wilson, Russ Wilson, Joey Cora or Jay Buhner can swing is dumb.
2/7/2014 1:35 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:34:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, if the order is Martinez, Griffey, Rodriguez or Martinez, Rodriguez, Griffey, hell yeah, take the walk. 

Several players have been criticized for not "expanding their strike zone".  Paul O'Neill was run out of Cincy, I think by Piniella, for that reason.   It really depends on who else is in the line-up.
Guys like Piniella are morons, then.  Swinging at balls, intentionally, is jackassery.
2/7/2014 1:36 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 1:33:00 PM (view original):
What you want is the best chance to win the game. Martinez getting on base increases your chances.
Because Dan Wilson was such a good hitter?

I think you're being intentionally dumb.   You could argue "How many times did that situation present itself?" and I'd have no answer.   But to pretend you want Martinez to walk so Dan Wilson, Russ Wilson, Joey Cora or Jay Buhner can swing is dumb.
I want him to get a hit.  If he walks, I'm not going to say "****, why didn't you swing at that 3-1 curveball at your ankles."
2/7/2014 1:36 PM
burnsy483
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If Edgar Martinez batted 3rd for his entire career, is his baseball career somehow more HOF worthy to you?
2/7/2014 1:38 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/7/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 1:34:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, if the order is Martinez, Griffey, Rodriguez or Martinez, Rodriguez, Griffey, hell yeah, take the walk. 

Several players have been criticized for not "expanding their strike zone".  Paul O'Neill was run out of Cincy, I think by Piniella, for that reason.   It really depends on who else is in the line-up.
Guys like Piniella are morons, then.  Swinging at balls, intentionally, is jackassery.
Who said he wanted them to swing at balls?   He wanted them to swing at strikes.   I guess I should have said "hitting zone". 

The strike zone is universally broken into 9 spaces.  For the most part, everyone has a strength/weakness.   Some guys won't swing at the weak area strikes because  they don't think they can do anything with them.   Right or wrong, the guy behind you should determine what you'll swing at.   If you've played ball, you've likely hit in front of someone who sucked.  If you weren't swinging at pitches you could put in play, you were doing your team a disservice.   And that's what they mean by "expanding your strike zone".
2/7/2014 1:40 PM
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