Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 4:06:00 AM (view original):
<<Mariners down by 1.  Two outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on second.  Edgar Martinez at the plate.  Dan Wilson on deck.

What do you want Edgar to do?>>

Tec...seriously...that is your scenario? Your assumption that the hitter is in control of this situation is laughable. But if it's Rivera or Wetteland on the mound we know that Edgar is going to hit the crap out of the ball. 

But since you and Mike are so smart, why don't we let you be the manager of the team in the field. What are you telling your pitcher to do? Your guy has the ball...what do you want him to do with it?

Troll away...

I'm Edgar's manager.  I can't manage both teams at the same time.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/9/2014 6:33:00 PM (view original):

Would you say Elston Howard was better than Davis, Wilson, Buhner?  I would.

Even if you wouldn't, Mantle's teammates drove him in over 31% of the time.   That's respectable.    Martinez's teammates weren't capable of 28% of the time.  So far, that's been the weakest by far.   Are you saying Martinez was so dumb that he didn't realize the guys behind him blew chunks?

Jay Buhner 106 rbi's per 162 games over his career. Elston Howard 77.

We're talking driving in runs right?

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 5:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 4:06:00 AM (view original):
<<Mariners down by 1.  Two outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on second.  Edgar Martinez at the plate.  Dan Wilson on deck.

What do you want Edgar to do?>>

Tec...seriously...that is your scenario? Your assumption that the hitter is in control of this situation is laughable. But if it's Rivera or Wetteland on the mound we know that Edgar is going to hit the crap out of the ball. 

But since you and Mike are so smart, why don't we let you be the manager of the team in the field. What are you telling your pitcher to do? Your guy has the ball...what do you want him to do with it?

Troll away...

I'm Edgar's manager.  I can't manage both teams at the same time.

And I will take that as you are smart enough to know that I am right. Thank you. Argument over.

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 7:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 5:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 4:06:00 AM (view original):
<<Mariners down by 1.  Two outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on second.  Edgar Martinez at the plate.  Dan Wilson on deck.

What do you want Edgar to do?>>

Tec...seriously...that is your scenario? Your assumption that the hitter is in control of this situation is laughable. But if it's Rivera or Wetteland on the mound we know that Edgar is going to hit the crap out of the ball. 

But since you and Mike are so smart, why don't we let you be the manager of the team in the field. What are you telling your pitcher to do? Your guy has the ball...what do you want him to do with it?

Troll away...

I'm Edgar's manager.  I can't manage both teams at the same time.

And I will take that as you are smart enough to know that I am right. Thank you. Argument over.

That's how I took it as well

pretty good group of hitters below

Player	500 PA/150 wRC+
Willie Mays	14
Babe Ruth	13
Barry Bonds	13
Hank Aaron	13
Stan Musial	13
Ted Williams	13
Tris Speaker	13
Ty Cobb	13
Lou Gehrig	12
Mel Ott	12
Frank Robinson	11
Honus Wagner	11
Mickey Mantle	11
Albert Pujols	9
Jimmie Foxx	9
Manny Ramirez	9
Rogers Hornsby	9
Alex Rodriguez	8
Dick Allen	8
Edgar Martinez	8
Frank Thomas	8
Johnny Mize	8

Howard .274/322/427/749  OPS + 108  per 162/G 62 R/ 17 HR/ 77 RBI

Buhner  254/359/494/852   OPS+ 124   per 162/G 88 R//34 HR/106 RBI         I wonder who those guys were driving Buhner in since he hit behind Edgar?

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 7:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 5:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 4:06:00 AM (view original):
<<Mariners down by 1.  Two outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on second.  Edgar Martinez at the plate.  Dan Wilson on deck.

What do you want Edgar to do?>>

Tec...seriously...that is your scenario? Your assumption that the hitter is in control of this situation is laughable. But if it's Rivera or Wetteland on the mound we know that Edgar is going to hit the crap out of the ball. 

But since you and Mike are so smart, why don't we let you be the manager of the team in the field. What are you telling your pitcher to do? Your guy has the ball...what do you want him to do with it?

Troll away...

I'm Edgar's manager.  I can't manage both teams at the same time.

And I will take that as you are smart enough to know that I am right. Thank you. Argument over.

Let's cut through the bullshit.

There are times when you want your hitters to be aggressive, and there are times when you're going to be OK with them showing more patience.

When you're down to your last out, you have arguably your best hitter at the plate with an arguably lesser hitter on deck, you want your better hitter being aggressive during his AB.

BL doesn't understand that element of the game.  He's focused on numbers on a stat sheet and probability matrices.  He's OK with EM patiently working out a walk and leaving the outcome of the game in the hands of the Dan Wilson's of the world.  If EM has a 3-1 count and gets a pitch that's close to the strike zone, I want him swinging andf trying to put the ball in play.  BL wants the walk because his precious stats and probability matrices say "WALK GOOD!!".

From a game management standpoint, BL's hopeful outcome is counter-productive.

Now if you want to take it from the point of view of the manager of the team on the field . . . who do you want to pitch to to try to get the final out?  Edgar Martinez, or Dan Wilson?

BL's preference is to let the other manager dictate how the end-game is going to play out.  That's bad baseball.

You know who a selfish bastard was? Tony Gwynn...

Player            3-0   count          swings        2-0   count          swings        3-1   count     swings

Edgar               653               51                    1745               593                    1268               657

Gwynn               543               19                    1279          269                    591               437

why the hell is Gwynn taking so many pitches  3-0 and 2-0?  Edgar swung at a far greater % of pitches in those counts    

who were pitchers more hesitant to throw a strike to at 3-1?  Edgar

Who has the higher OBP/SLG/OPS?    Edgar

Tony Gwynn was not batting cleanup.  Edgar Martinez was.  Tony's job was to get on base.  Edgar's job was to drive them in.

3-1 count.  Gwynn is swing 74% of the time.  Edgar is swinging 52% of the time.  I want those numbers reversed.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 7:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 7:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 5:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/10/2014 4:06:00 AM (view original):
<<Mariners down by 1.  Two outs, bottom of the ninth, tying run on second.  Edgar Martinez at the plate.  Dan Wilson on deck.

What do you want Edgar to do?>>

Tec...seriously...that is your scenario? Your assumption that the hitter is in control of this situation is laughable. But if it's Rivera or Wetteland on the mound we know that Edgar is going to hit the crap out of the ball. 

But since you and Mike are so smart, why don't we let you be the manager of the team in the field. What are you telling your pitcher to do? Your guy has the ball...what do you want him to do with it?

Troll away...

I'm Edgar's manager.  I can't manage both teams at the same time.

And I will take that as you are smart enough to know that I am right. Thank you. Argument over.

Let's cut through the bullshit.

There are times when you want your hitters to be aggressive, and there are times when you're going to be OK with them showing more patience.

When you're down to your last out, you have arguably your best hitter at the plate with an arguably lesser hitter on deck, you want your better hitter being aggressive during his AB.

BL doesn't understand that element of the game.  He's focused on numbers on a stat sheet and probability matrices.  He's OK with EM patiently working out a walk and leaving the outcome of the game in the hands of the Dan Wilson's of the world.  If EM has a 3-1 count and gets a pitch that's close to the strike zone, I want him swinging andf trying to put the ball in play.  BL wants the walk because his precious stats and probability matrices say "WALK GOOD!!".

From a game management standpoint, BL's hopeful outcome is counter-productive.

Now if you want to take it from the point of view of the manager of the team on the field . . . who do you want to pitch to to try to get the final out?  Edgar Martinez, or Dan Wilson?

BL's preference is to let the other manager dictate how the end-game is going to play out.  That's bad baseball.

I said you'd want him to try to get a hit in that scenario. So what? No one has shown any evidence that he didn't.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/10/2014 5:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/9/2014 11:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/9/2014 11:11:00 PM (view original):
Plus, you're so goddamned enslaved by your tunnel-vision love of stats, such as OBP and such, that you continually fail to understand the human element of the game.  Such as swing the ******* bat when the game is on the line.

That's the funny/clownish/amusing part.

I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that Martinez didn't swing the bat when the game was on the line.

Well, you've kept arguing, HYPOTHETICALLY, that EM drawing a walk in those situations and hoping that the Dan Wilson's of the world get the job done is somehow better than him swinging the bat.

Which is funny/clownish/amusing.

I never said that a walk was preferable to a hit in that situation.

The average major league non-pitcher batted .171 and slugged .230 on balls out of the strike zone in 2013. I don't know what those numbers were when Edgar played but probably not much different. Swinging at pitches you are not likely to hit well is usually not a good idea. Unless you're my opponent. Then go for it!

Nobody is telling anybody to swing at pitches out of the strike zone.

But if a pitch is in the strike zone, I want EM to swing at it rather than work the count trying to draw the walk.

This shouldn't be rocket science.

It looks like he did. He still hit over 300 and slugged over 500 for his career. A 14% walk rate is on par with other great hitters.

How many times did he take strikes and then walk in a PA where a base hit was needed?