2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/6/2014 10:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/6/2014 9:08:00 AM (view original):
"DH" isn't a position in the sense you're thinking of.  His candidacy is hurt by the fact he didn't play defense.  Had he played defense, his offensive numbers likely would have suffered.
Burnsy,

Well when you consider that WAR does take into account defense, and that Edgar has already been penalized for not being the field for most of his career, he still has HOF numbers. If the Mariners had stuck him at 1B, why would his numbers "likely would have suffered?"  He was not a bad 3B. And since the AL has a position called DH, he was a great fit for it.

Can you give me an instance of a bad fielder with comparable offensive numbers who is not in the HOF?
First off, I think Edgar is a HOFer.  I understand WAR penalizes him, which is essentially my point.  People talk about how great a hitter he was (and he was) but he played half the game.  By playing half the game, you concentrate on that half only and don't suffer any wear and tear that you normally would playing defense.
2/6/2014 10:55 AM
Posted by seamar_116 on 2/6/2014 10:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 8:20:00 AM (view original):
Uh, MLB and NFL are not the same organizations.
Gee, thanks Mike for setting me straight on that. Do you think punters or kickers should be in the NFL HOF?
Sure but they better be spectacular at what they do. 

I think there is one kicker and now one punter in the HOF.   IOW, a HOF that demands a specific number be elected each year has chosen 1 each since inception.  Unlike the NFL HOF, the MLB HOF does not demand that anyone get elected in any year.    One of the differences between MLB/NFL HOF.   Was Martinez the best hitter during his career?  Uh, no.   But that was all he did.
2/6/2014 11:04 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/6/2014 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by seamar_116 on 2/6/2014 10:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/6/2014 9:08:00 AM (view original):
"DH" isn't a position in the sense you're thinking of.  His candidacy is hurt by the fact he didn't play defense.  Had he played defense, his offensive numbers likely would have suffered.
Burnsy,

Well when you consider that WAR does take into account defense, and that Edgar has already been penalized for not being the field for most of his career, he still has HOF numbers. If the Mariners had stuck him at 1B, why would his numbers "likely would have suffered?"  He was not a bad 3B. And since the AL has a position called DH, he was a great fit for it.

Can you give me an instance of a bad fielder with comparable offensive numbers who is not in the HOF?
First off, I think Edgar is a HOFer.  I understand WAR penalizes him, which is essentially my point.  People talk about how great a hitter he was (and he was) but he played half the game.  By playing half the game, you concentrate on that half only and don't suffer any wear and tear that you normally would playing defense.
That's a valid point but, at the same time, his offense was so good that he should be able to overcome that disadvantage in the same way that Frank Thomas was able to.

seamar: Can you give me an instance of a bad fielder with comparable offensive numbers who is not in the HOF?

Albert Belle. Jeff Bagwell. Dick Allen. Derek Jeter.




2/6/2014 2:28 PM
Jeff Bagwell was a good fielder, not sure why he only won one Gold Glove.
2/6/2014 2:45 PM
Posted by Got_Worms on 2/6/2014 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Jeff Bagwell was a good fielder, not sure why he only won one Gold Glove.
He was a first baseman. Martinez was a capable third baseman. I'd guess that he would have been able to play first at an acceptable level had he been forced to.
2/6/2014 4:02 PM

Obviously.  Because, if you're not good enough to get on the field as a 3B, you could probably play 1B at an acceptable level.

2/6/2014 5:29 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 5:29:00 PM (view original):

Obviously.  Because, if you're not good enough to get on the field as a 3B, you could probably play 1B at an acceptable level.

He wasn't a terrible third baseman, total zone has him just a hair above average for the 564 games he played there. I think he moved to DH to avoid injury, which hurts his case, but not enough to overcome the value he added with his bat.

In my mind (and this isn't my original thought, it's an idea I've borrowed) there's a scale. The hardest positions (SS, C, 2B, CF) at one end and the easiest (DH, 1B, LF) at the other. The easier your position, the more you have to hit to be considered an all time great. DH is obviously the easiest position, so to be a hall of famer at DH you have to have an all time great bat. Martinez has that.

2/6/2014 6:24 PM
He wasn't a good one either.   4605 innings, 78 errors.   Basically an error every 6.5 games.    I suppose his range was within reason.   Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average.    At the beginning of his career before he quit bringing a glove to the game.  I don't think he would have magically gotten better as he aged.

One could argue that he'd have been an acceptable 1B but I don't think it's a gimme as you implied.  I'm sure players failed to move from a tougher position to an easier one but there's really no baseline to work with.   Because failures don't stay in the bigs very long.

So, IMO, it's better to focus on what happened as opposed to what we think would have happened.    He played some "meh" 3B earlier in his career then mostly just hit.   I don't think we can surmise what he'd have been at 1b based on his limited 3B experience and 220ish innings at 1B.
2/6/2014 8:33 PM
How is a DH different than an AL pitcher? How many AL pitchers racked up numbers because they were able to stay in games because they did not have to be PH for? And, they did not risk injury by having to hit or run the bases. Should AL pitchers be judged by a different standard than NL pitchers?

Albert Belle...character issues
Jeter...you don't think Jeter gets into the HOF?, seriously?
Bagwell...certainly a case can be made...PED taint by association
Allen...career too short...behind Edgar in r, h, 2b, rbi, avg, obp, plus a very poor defensive player
2/6/2014 9:40 PM
Posted by seamar_116 on 2/6/2014 9:40:00 PM (view original):
How is a DH different than an AL pitcher? How many AL pitchers racked up numbers because they were able to stay in games because they did not have to be PH for? And, they did not risk injury by having to hit or run the bases. Should AL pitchers be judged by a different standard than NL pitchers?

Albert Belle...character issues
Jeter...you don't think Jeter gets into the HOF?, seriously?
Bagwell...certainly a case can be made...PED taint by association
Allen...career too short...behind Edgar in r, h, 2b, rbi, avg, obp, plus a very poor defensive player
I threw Jeter in as a joke. I think Martinez belongs.
2/6/2014 11:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 8:33:00 PM (view original):
He wasn't a good one either.   4605 innings, 78 errors.   Basically an error every 6.5 games.    I suppose his range was within reason.   Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average.    At the beginning of his career before he quit bringing a glove to the game.  I don't think he would have magically gotten better as he aged.

One could argue that he'd have been an acceptable 1B but I don't think it's a gimme as you implied.  I'm sure players failed to move from a tougher position to an easier one but there's really no baseline to work with.   Because failures don't stay in the bigs very long.

So, IMO, it's better to focus on what happened as opposed to what we think would have happened.    He played some "meh" 3B earlier in his career then mostly just hit.   I don't think we can surmise what he'd have been at 1b based on his limited 3B experience and 220ish innings at 1B.
You know there's more to defense than just errors, right?

Anyway, it's beside the point. As just a DH his bat was good enough to make him worthy. But this is pointless because you only think 15 position players belong in the Hall.
2/6/2014 11:14 PM
I said his range was within reason.    Your "total zone" said he was slightly above average.   I said "Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average."    I don't think you're arguing he had Brooks Robinson potential at 3B, are you?

Anyway, my point was that he didn't play 1B.  No need to guess how he would have been as a 1B.   Or how he would have played 3B had he played a significant amount of time there.   He was a DH. 
2/7/2014 7:14 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/6/2014 11:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 8:33:00 PM (view original):
He wasn't a good one either.   4605 innings, 78 errors.   Basically an error every 6.5 games.    I suppose his range was within reason.   Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average.    At the beginning of his career before he quit bringing a glove to the game.  I don't think he would have magically gotten better as he aged.

One could argue that he'd have been an acceptable 1B but I don't think it's a gimme as you implied.  I'm sure players failed to move from a tougher position to an easier one but there's really no baseline to work with.   Because failures don't stay in the bigs very long.

So, IMO, it's better to focus on what happened as opposed to what we think would have happened.    He played some "meh" 3B earlier in his career then mostly just hit.   I don't think we can surmise what he'd have been at 1b based on his limited 3B experience and 220ish innings at 1B.
You know there's more to defense than just errors, right?

Anyway, it's beside the point. As just a DH his bat was good enough to make him worthy. But this is pointless because you only think 15 position players belong in the Hall.
What's pointless is your constant promotion of EM for the HOF when it's pretty obvious that it's not happening:

Hall of Fame
2010 BBWAA (36.2%)
2011 BBWAA (32.9%)
2012 BBWAA (36.5%)
2013 BBWAA (35.9%)
2014 BBWAA (25.2%)

2/7/2014 8:34 AM
Let's try it this way.

I think it's fair to say his peak years were 1995-2001.   He missed significant time in '93-94 and essentially put his glove away(sort of confirming your contention that he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury).
I think it's fair to say you love WAR.    In those 7 peak years, he was top 10 in WAR once.   5th in '95 or '96(I don't remember).  

Do you really think he is HOF-worthy when he can crack the top 10 just once in his 7 peak years in the stat you refer to most often?
2/7/2014 8:47 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/7/2014 8:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/6/2014 11:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/6/2014 8:33:00 PM (view original):
He wasn't a good one either.   4605 innings, 78 errors.   Basically an error every 6.5 games.    I suppose his range was within reason.   Using whatever stat you want, he's slightly below/above average.    At the beginning of his career before he quit bringing a glove to the game.  I don't think he would have magically gotten better as he aged.

One could argue that he'd have been an acceptable 1B but I don't think it's a gimme as you implied.  I'm sure players failed to move from a tougher position to an easier one but there's really no baseline to work with.   Because failures don't stay in the bigs very long.

So, IMO, it's better to focus on what happened as opposed to what we think would have happened.    He played some "meh" 3B earlier in his career then mostly just hit.   I don't think we can surmise what he'd have been at 1b based on his limited 3B experience and 220ish innings at 1B.
You know there's more to defense than just errors, right?

Anyway, it's beside the point. As just a DH his bat was good enough to make him worthy. But this is pointless because you only think 15 position players belong in the Hall.
What's pointless is your constant promotion of EM for the HOF when it's pretty obvious that it's not happening:

Hall of Fame
2010 BBWAA (36.2%)
2011 BBWAA (32.9%)
2012 BBWAA (36.5%)
2013 BBWAA (35.9%)
2014 BBWAA (25.2%)

Yea, its a miracle guys like Blyleven and Rice got in, right?
2/7/2014 10:05 AM
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2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

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