Never thought I'd send this in.... Topic

noah23
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That is actually where I got the information I went off to analyze this game. That exact question. If the whole defense influences a running play...should not every blocking offensive linemen, tight end and full back do so as well? The idea that a running play to the middle is 4 vs 11 is confusing if you look at the partial influence as any major deal. The problem I have, is that I don't know what questions to ask because I have no basis from which to ask questions anymore. In beta I used test game thousands of times. From that I could delineate what I was doing was or wasn't working and why. Helped me ask the questions so to speak. I'm so lost right now I'm not sure what questions to even ask.
1/21/2014 11:26 PM
slid64er
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Posted by noah23 on 1/21/2014 11:26:00 PM (view original):
That is actually where I got the information I went off to analyze this game. That exact question. If the whole defense influences a running play...should not every blocking offensive linemen, tight end and full back do so as well? The idea that a running play to the middle is 4 vs 11 is confusing if you look at the partial influence as any major deal. The problem I have, is that I don't know what questions to ask because I have no basis from which to ask questions anymore. In beta I used test game thousands of times. From that I could delineate what I was doing was or wasn't working and why. Helped me ask the questions so to speak. I'm so lost right now I'm not sure what questions to even ask.
Ask them to explain how a running play works.  Ask them who is involved in each step.  Ask them what attributes are involved in each step.  Ask them what calculations are involved in each step.  Ask them what those calculations lead to at each step.  Ask them how advantages in attributes, GI and formation IQ are used to make a final determination in each step.

We'll wait patiently till hell freezes over.  They don't know what's going on.  They won't answer because they can't or they're embarrassed about the work they've done.
1/21/2014 11:41 PM
rlslmshdy
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Posted by slid64er on 1/21/2014 11:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by noah23 on 1/21/2014 11:26:00 PM (view original):
That is actually where I got the information I went off to analyze this game. That exact question. If the whole defense influences a running play...should not every blocking offensive linemen, tight end and full back do so as well? The idea that a running play to the middle is 4 vs 11 is confusing if you look at the partial influence as any major deal. The problem I have, is that I don't know what questions to ask because I have no basis from which to ask questions anymore. In beta I used test game thousands of times. From that I could delineate what I was doing was or wasn't working and why. Helped me ask the questions so to speak. I'm so lost right now I'm not sure what questions to even ask.
Ask them to explain how a running play works.  Ask them who is involved in each step.  Ask them what attributes are involved in each step.  Ask them what calculations are involved in each step.  Ask them what those calculations lead to at each step.  Ask them how advantages in attributes, GI and formation IQ are used to make a final determination in each step.

We'll wait patiently till hell freezes over.  They don't know what's going on.  They won't answer because they can't or they're embarrassed about the work they've done.
I maybe in the minority but as far as im concerned I dont want or expect them to tell me everything about how the engine works in that amount of detail. That would take all the fun out of the game for me. Knowing all that just makes the game a math problem.
1/22/2014 12:45 AM
katzphang88
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Posted by rlslmshdy on 1/22/2014 12:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by slid64er on 1/21/2014 11:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by noah23 on 1/21/2014 11:26:00 PM (view original):
That is actually where I got the information I went off to analyze this game. That exact question. If the whole defense influences a running play...should not every blocking offensive linemen, tight end and full back do so as well? The idea that a running play to the middle is 4 vs 11 is confusing if you look at the partial influence as any major deal. The problem I have, is that I don't know what questions to ask because I have no basis from which to ask questions anymore. In beta I used test game thousands of times. From that I could delineate what I was doing was or wasn't working and why. Helped me ask the questions so to speak. I'm so lost right now I'm not sure what questions to even ask.
Ask them to explain how a running play works.  Ask them who is involved in each step.  Ask them what attributes are involved in each step.  Ask them what calculations are involved in each step.  Ask them what those calculations lead to at each step.  Ask them how advantages in attributes, GI and formation IQ are used to make a final determination in each step.

We'll wait patiently till hell freezes over.  They don't know what's going on.  They won't answer because they can't or they're embarrassed about the work they've done.
I maybe in the minority but as far as im concerned I dont want or expect them to tell me everything about how the engine works in that amount of detail. That would take all the fun out of the game for me. Knowing all that just makes the game a math problem.
Really? This game is made up of players made up of numbers, who have numbers as expressions of how well they know the game and use numbers to compare how well they play against each other. IT IS A MATH PROBLEM! No players coming up and saying "Gimme the ball coach - I can do it!" No Rudys - No Tebows - NUMBERS! The way some of the comparisons are now we might as well get rid of recruiting - start all players with 50 ratings across the board and then just game plan against the all run or all pass defenses we see. Two years ago we were asked to help the WIS developers by giving ideas on how to make their game better - they wanted it better because the numbers of coaches who left after 2.0 started caught their attention. Now two years later, we are still asking for the same things we were asking for  then, make the numbers of our players matter when matched-up with other players. Give us play by play that tells us who is winning at the line, for the tackles and for the passes. Now we only get that on almost every pass play "The defense has heavy pressure on QB Bob."

Noah used to be one who was able to get on here and say: I can sorta figure out what they are meaning. Now he has played long enough to be frustrated at the lack of concern WIS has for this game and the fact that no one can really know how this game works. For those that think that signing up for your favorite school and getting some high GUESS rated team (sorry Bob - but Guess is the standard) is really what this game is about - and hoping that you can make the playoffs against the SIMs in an empty world, then you don't understand what some of us have tried to do. Continue in your fog until your team that you have spent $100's of dollars on gets beat by another team and you just can't understand why. Then come back and say - Oh well - I'll live with it because I really don't want to know how the game works - it wouldn't be any fun.
1/22/2014 1:12 AM
noah23
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Katz put it better then I could right there. I worked my butt off to get to a point where I felt I kinda understood the game. I took a lot of time to give suggestions and while norbert was here there was at least some sort of attempt at a two way conversation with us. To me..this game is math. Its like being told to figure out an equation, but the equation is not one that follows regular math rules and needs a cypher, then not giving the cypher. I don't want to pay for a game where I have to walk around blindfolded for the sake of it being mysterious. If I didn't pay, I would be fine with not knowing. If they gave me the scrimmage option, I'd figure it out for myself like I did in beta.

For instance, Lee Garcia has an incredibly high Elusiveness rating for DIII. That, in beta, meant you had a seriously good running back. Dominate. I remember Marcus McNeill on CNU in beta. Very similar ratings to Garcia. Similar gameplan. 8+YPC throughout the season consistently.

1/22/2014 1:30 AM
samson75
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Well, perhaps this is a little late, but the complaint based on a lack of visible run success with a superior offensive line has been around since Beta.  It was one of the more consistent complaints.  It was one area where superior numbers never seemed to equal any sort of truly superior advantage.  Maybe this has been addressed since Beta.  Maybe not.  Are you really sure you have been seeing advantages in this area up untill now?  

I am not sure comparing stats from players in Beta to players here in live 3.0 with similar attributes always makes sense.  Beta filled up with human coaches who signed on for multiple seasons and never finished one.  It was common to face teams that had multiple seasons of walkons with no practice plans set.   Outside the playoffs, the regular season of Beta was a walkthrough.  Sims here and now may very well be tougher than those human and/or humantosim teams in Beta. If there was a "death penalty" in Wis, it is getting a human coach to sign up for multiple seasons and never look at the team.  Multiple seasons of walkons sends programs to the darkages, and that was fairly common in Beta, especially at the div 3 level.  I remember looking at recruiting and despite having mostly human coaches in the conference I played in, it was almost all walkons for every program outside of Gino's Huntingdon team and my Rowan team.  Perhaps each world was different, but I played in the same world as your Christopher Newport team.  These programs were nowhere near as good as true sims which presumably is what you are playing against now.

Anyway, sorry you are so frustrated.  I won't defend or promote WIS, but customer support did tell me a game guide explaining mechanics is in the works.  maybe it is worth sticking around for.  Presumably it will have the answers you want.        
1/22/2014 4:56 AM
polarsi
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You've hit the nail on the head, there's a massive difference between permanent SIM teams who - because of the clever part of recruiting - have reasonable quality players and those SIM teams who were 'managed' by Human Coaches who never signed anyone and thus the roster was filled at the 11th hour with walk-ons. Nothing developers can do about that.
To be honest, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I WANT competetive games against SIM's. There is nothing more depressing than steamrollering SIM's and then getting hammered by a human in the playoffs due to complacency!

1/22/2014 7:02 AM
bhazlewood
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Katz said
 For those that think that signing up for your favorite school and getting some high GUESS rated team (sorry Bob - but Guess is the standard) is really what this game is about - and hoping that you can make the playoffs against the SIMs in an empty world, then you don't understand what some of us have tried to do. 
 
No offense taken - frankly I wish people would stop using GUESS as a standard, because right now I have absolutely ZERO clue as to what makes a player successful at a given position.

1/22/2014 7:53 AM
sjurat
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Posted by jtd79 on 1/20/2014 5:58:00 PM (view original):
The rest of you, I also don't understand.  Bob, you have a valid complaint that the Dev's should at least spend 5 minutes a week on a developer's blog to let us know what they are up to and to give us a roadmap of expected changes.  Beyond that, none of these complaints are based in reality.  The game engine has not be tweaked in almost a month.  There are no stealth changes and nerfs, it is acting very consistently game to game.  The SIM's are harder to beat than they were in 2.0 but that's not a bad change.  
So the 9 turnovers we had in the first have - which included 5 ints in 30 attempts by a kid with above average GI & Tech - is indicative of an engine that is tuned properly?
1/22/2014 7:58 AM
sjurat
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Posted by polarsi on 1/22/2014 7:02:00 AM (view original):

You've hit the nail on the head, there's a massive difference between permanent SIM teams who - because of the clever part of recruiting - have reasonable quality players and those SIM teams who were 'managed' by Human Coaches who never signed anyone and thus the roster was filled at the 11th hour with walk-ons. Nothing developers can do about that.
To be honest, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I WANT competetive games against SIM's. There is nothing more depressing than steamrollering SIM's and then getting hammered by a human in the playoffs due to complacency!

They could fold some worlds - we have 24 human coaches in Wilkerson D1aa, and 7 are in the Ivy.
1/22/2014 8:00 AM
bhouska
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Posted by bhazlewood on 1/22/2014 7:53:00 AM (view original):
Katz said
 For those that think that signing up for your favorite school and getting some high GUESS rated team (sorry Bob - but Guess is the standard) is really what this game is about - and hoping that you can make the playoffs against the SIMs in an empty world, then you don't understand what some of us have tried to do. 
 
No offense taken - frankly I wish people would stop using GUESS as a standard, because right now I have absolutely ZERO clue as to what makes a player successful at a given position.

I disagree, if you'll look at the teams winning NC's, they'll also be rated highly on GUESS.  Good job, Bob.


1/22/2014 10:01 AM
harriswb3
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Bob Hazlewood:

Lets look at it this way:  if we assume that you have no clue....we still do not care about that.  What we care about is that YOU have established a STANDARD.   From there we can all deviate as we wish....but we will all still come back to that standard.

Even on a bad day...your contributions to the game are far greater than all the rest of us combined.  You and yatzr are the only glue holding this game together.
1/22/2014 10:19 AM
jtd79
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Sjurat, you want to post that game for me to look at?  Im quite sure several of us can pick it apart.  I looked at your active teams but didn't see a game that matched that description.
1/22/2014 10:19 AM
jtd79
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Posted by harriswb3 on 1/22/2014 10:19:00 AM (view original):
Bob Hazlewood:

Lets look at it this way:  if we assume that you have no clue....we still do not care about that.  What we care about is that YOU have established a STANDARD.   From there we can all deviate as we wish....but we will all still come back to that standard.

Even on a bad day...your contributions to the game are far greater than all the rest of us combined.  You and yatzr are the only glue holding this game together.
A HUGE +1 to this.
1/22/2014 10:20 AM
sjurat
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Posted by jtd79 on 1/22/2014 10:19:00 AM (view original):
Sjurat, you want to post that game for me to look at?  Im quite sure several of us can pick it apart.  I looked at your active teams but didn't see a game that matched that description.
today's game in Leahey -- Arkon v Arizona State...I'll try to post the game.
1/22/2014 11:35 AM
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