Derek Jeter's Last Stand Topic

MikeT23
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Practicing taking a pitch:

9/25/2014 2:30 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 9/25/2014 2:29:00 PM (view original):

Oh, dang.  That's the MARINERS HOF!!!!

Aw. Shucks. 
9/25/2014 2:30 PM
MikeT23
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I know, right?
9/25/2014 2:31 PM
bad_luck
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If Jeter plays 20 years for the Astros, he's Craig Biggio. He struggles to get in the Hall and Mike calls him a compiler.
9/25/2014 2:35 PM
tecwrg
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I'd put Biggio in the HOF.
9/25/2014 2:37 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 9/25/2014 2:37:00 PM (view original):
I'd put Biggio in the HOF.
What do you know, we agree.

I'd put Jeter in. I think he deserves it just as much as EM, Beltre, Trammell, Raines, etc.


9/25/2014 2:44 PM
MikeT23
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Hall of 280 hitters?
9/25/2014 2:44 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 2:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/25/2014 2:37:00 PM (view original):
I'd put Biggio in the HOF.
What do you know, we agree.

I'd put Jeter in. I think he deserves it just as much as EM, Beltre, Trammell, Raines, etc.


Do you put any value on hitting one of the big milestones? 3000 hits, 300 wins, etc
9/25/2014 2:45 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 2:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/25/2014 2:37:00 PM (view original):
I'd put Biggio in the HOF.
What do you know, we agree.

I'd put Jeter in. I think he deserves it just as much as EM, Beltre, Trammell, Raines, etc.


Do you put any value on hitting one of the big milestones? 3000 hits, 300 wins, etc
Not really. To me, 501 home runs isn't much different than 496 home runs. 2987 hits guy should be just as much of a lock as 3017 hits guy, assuming all else is equal.

And don't even get me started on wins.

I think Jeter belongs because he was a great offensive player for a short period of time and a good one for a lot longer, while playing shortstop, even though he was a terrible defensive shortstop. Not because he hit any magic numbers. Same with Beltre (for different reasons) when he, probably, gets to 3000 hits.
9/25/2014 2:53 PM
burnsy483
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I like the milestones.  The 500 home runs probably has to be ignored now.  But whatever.

So I give Jeter more value than you because nobody not in the HOF did what Jeter did for 18 years (before 2013), as a shortstop. And nobody at all did in recent memory. He was remarkably consistent.  Most guys have to move off SS, or they fade away.  Comparing him to Trammell?  Jeter was just better. During his peak, and during his career.  Trammell didn't play a full season past 33.  And while I didn't see him play as an adult, his defense had to be sensational to make up the difference. They aren't in the same conversation.  I have him over Raines and EM too, but not by as much as Trammell.
9/25/2014 3:04 PM
burnsy483
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In short, I put value in being the "best at something."  In my baseball-watching career, so...25 years...he was the best SS over that time period.
9/25/2014 3:07 PM
MikeT23
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Comparing Biggio and/or Trammell to Jeter is retarded.

9/25/2014 3:14 PM
burnsy483
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I think the Biggio comparison is legit. Just look at the numbers, and he played difficult defensive positions. The Trammell one is kinda silly.
9/25/2014 3:20 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:05:00 PM (view original):
I like the milestones.  The 500 home runs probably has to be ignored now.  But whatever.

So I give Jeter more value than you because nobody not in the HOF did what Jeter did for 18 years (before 2013), as a shortstop. And nobody at all did in recent memory. He was remarkably consistent.  Most guys have to move off SS, or they fade away.  Comparing him to Trammell?  Jeter was just better. During his peak, and during his career.  Trammell didn't play a full season past 33.  And while I didn't see him play as an adult, his defense had to be sensational to make up the difference. They aren't in the same conversation.  I have him over Raines and EM too, but not by as much as Trammell.
I think you're selling Trammell short. By OPS+, his peak was higher than Jeter's and there is no comparison on defense. Jeter has about 3000 more plate appearances, so the durability and counting numbers are in his favor. I think they're pretty close.
9/25/2014 3:29 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:20:00 PM (view original):
I think the Biggio comparison is legit. Just look at the numbers, and he played difficult defensive positions. The Trammell one is kinda silly.
Not really.

Jeter is better in all the averages.  Biggio played in Houston.   Jeter played in NY.    If you don't believe in the "fish bowl" effect, I'm not going to convince you that there's a difference.   Also, to me, the quality of the teams around them matter.   For much of Biggio's career, Houston wasn't a factor.   Thus one could wonder how hard, if at all, Houston went about upgrading the team.   Maybe NY never considered replacing/moving Jeter.   Maybe he was the position they said "Doesn't matter.  Jeter plays SS."  I might even agree since I've said "Yeah, the Yanks would have came in first a lot more with Jeter playing LF" more than once.   But then you compare post-season success/failure.  Biggio stunk in the 6 seasons Houston made the playoffs.   Jeter maintained/improved his averages in the post-season.  I think both compiled some numbers.   Jeter compiled more in a tougher enviroment and didn't shrink in the playoffs.  Finally, and I've mentioned this several times before, there's the "fame" part in the HOF.   Biggio could eat lunch anywhere he wanted and go unnoticed outside of Houston.    What bumfuck city would Jeter go unnoticed in?  
9/25/2014 3:39 PM
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