Frauds try to be psychologists, fail miserably Topic

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.
One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

2/15/2014 12:59 PM
Unleashing an epic butt kicking isn't really a problem I feel I need to plan for with this team :)

I've thought about doing just what you say, but hadn't tried it yet. It made sense but I just wasn't sure if it would underplay the subs and overplay starters and with starters with low stamina you just end up with the same problem, only probably closer to the end of the game which would arguably be worse.
2/15/2014 1:03 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Unleashing an epic butt kicking isn't really a problem I feel I need to plan for with this team :)

I've thought about doing just what you say, but hadn't tried it yet. It made sense but I just wasn't sure if it would underplay the subs and overplay starters and with starters with low stamina you just end up with the same problem, only probably closer to the end of the game which would arguably be worse.
On target minutes, the sim's top priority, as best I could tell, is making sure that everyone you've set to receive minutes gets inside their 4-minute "window" that you assigned. Once that condition is met, the leftover minutes seemed to go pretty situational based on the score and fatigue factors (it would lift people in the yellow if there was a suitably rested person on the bench as I recall, but it has been 2+ years probably since I switched over to fatigue full time for all my teams). Even in a close game, I don't remember it running my starters down to "very tired" maroon levels in lieu of putting in a fresher player to spell them a couple minutes though. If you've had an overtime game, I would imagine the substitution pattern would be similar to what you experienced in OT when everyone had gone over their minutes allotments due to the extra length of the game.
2/15/2014 1:10 PM
If you can remember, which games did you use fatigue settings for substitutions? That will help people when looking through play by plays to see where there might be issues.
2/15/2014 1:32 PM
Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.
One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

Same thing works for me in minutes. If I have two point guards with one being much better than the other I usually use the 19-23 for the starter and the 9-13 for the sub and let the game dictate who gets the extra 4. It's almost always the starter unless he's in foul trouble. I think if you have more than an 8 man rotation minutes are the way to go. 

Only reason I can think your players are getting that tired is like someone said earlier, you may have guys listed across multiple positions. If that's not the case then maybe foul trouble but thats a game by game basis

2/15/2014 1:42 PM
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Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 11:12:00 AM (view original):
If you list the game, the time of the substitution (or lack thereof), your depth chart, and what you think should have happened, we can explainwhat happened and how to avoid it.t
There's not just one. That's the thing with all of this, on several fronts. People seem ot act like I'm reacting and complaining about a single instance. I'm not. These things are systemic and really I would think veterans wouldn't even have to be given an explanation because they would just know because surely it's happened with their teams too.

I would also think they would have been screaming to get these things fixed or leave the sim but obviously neither of those has happened in large enough quantities.
Just pick one. There's a reason for these issues and this is how to troubleshoot it.
2/15/2014 2:19 PM (edited)
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 7:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 5:35:00 AM (view original):
How do you have your depth chart set-up and what are settings for individual players foul trouble?
Most of the foul trouble setting are to play more (or whatever the wording is) because I don't want to lose someone for a whole half for just two fouls, which is what seems to happen on normal.

The depth chart changes every game, so no real way to answer that.

Bottom line is I tell the sim to sub at "fairly fresh" and I see "getting tired" and then a dead ball and still no sub. That's just ridiculous. 
might the fatigue of the backup or other sub be preventing the substitution? it doesn't explain all of these types of issues, but it does explain most of them.
2/15/2014 2:40 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 2:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 11:12:00 AM (view original):
If you list the game, the time of the substitution (or lack thereof), your depth chart, and what you think should have happened, we can explainwhat happened and how to avoid it.t
There's not just one. That's the thing with all of this, on several fronts. People seem ot act like I'm reacting and complaining about a single instance. I'm not. These things are systemic and really I would think veterans wouldn't even have to be given an explanation because they would just know because surely it's happened with their teams too.

I would also think they would have been screaming to get these things fixed or leave the sim but obviously neither of those has happened in large enough quantities.
Just pick one. There's a reason for these issues and this is how to troubleshoot it.
exactly.

the thing is, etta, believe or not - the rest of us have went through these same issues. instead of just complaining, we sought help with real examples and got feedback on how to do it better. we learned. then we realized the system really wasn't so messed up after all. or in other cases, we still thought it was messed up, and there are plenty of things you will hear people complain about or be unhappy with. i think the fatigue substitution is imperfect but is not nearly as bad as you describe it. with specifics, we could review your situation and explain your troubles, or else maybe you'd convince us its more wrong than we think. but these pseudo random complaints without anything real in terms of evidence or examples is no way to advance the ball on these conversations.
2/15/2014 2:46 PM
Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Unleashing an epic butt kicking isn't really a problem I feel I need to plan for with this team :)

I've thought about doing just what you say, but hadn't tried it yet. It made sense but I just wasn't sure if it would underplay the subs and overplay starters and with starters with low stamina you just end up with the same problem, only probably closer to the end of the game which would arguably be worse.
On target minutes, the sim's top priority, as best I could tell, is making sure that everyone you've set to receive minutes gets inside their 4-minute "window" that you assigned. Once that condition is met, the leftover minutes seemed to go pretty situational based on the score and fatigue factors (it would lift people in the yellow if there was a suitably rested person on the bench as I recall, but it has been 2+ years probably since I switched over to fatigue full time for all my teams). Even in a close game, I don't remember it running my starters down to "very tired" maroon levels in lieu of putting in a fresher player to spell them a couple minutes though. If you've had an overtime game, I would imagine the substitution pattern would be similar to what you experienced in OT when everyone had gone over their minutes allotments due to the extra length of the game.
Definitely my experience on the "top priority" I had a guy with 62 Stamina play 18 min in a half early in the season. Since then I figure it's better to let a guy play with 2 fouls than have that happen if you use minutes.

With fatigue, it just seems like you're at the mercy of the sim, and it doesn't even do what little you tell it to do in that scenario.
2/15/2014 2:47 PM
Posted by mikvitu on 2/15/2014 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.
One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

Same thing works for me in minutes. If I have two point guards with one being much better than the other I usually use the 19-23 for the starter and the 9-13 for the sub and let the game dictate who gets the extra 4. It's almost always the starter unless he's in foul trouble. I think if you have more than an 8 man rotation minutes are the way to go. 

Only reason I can think your players are getting that tired is like someone said earlier, you may have guys listed across multiple positions. If that's not the case then maybe foul trouble but thats a game by game basis

Hrm that's really interesting. Going to hit you on sitemail to go further with this.

Much more productive than people probing for evidence that I did something wrong.

2/15/2014 2:51 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 2:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 7:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 5:35:00 AM (view original):
How do you have your depth chart set-up and what are settings for individual players foul trouble?
Most of the foul trouble setting are to play more (or whatever the wording is) because I don't want to lose someone for a whole half for just two fouls, which is what seems to happen on normal.

The depth chart changes every game, so no real way to answer that.

Bottom line is I tell the sim to sub at "fairly fresh" and I see "getting tired" and then a dead ball and still no sub. That's just ridiculous. 
Okay, let me try again. When you set the depth chart do you have four players listed for each position? Do you have players set to more to more than one position? Do you have different players listed at the same position with different foul settings? Get the drift.......

All of these things can affect whether or not a player has to be on the court more than their stamina (and the selected stamina settings) is suppose to allow. So, the real bottom line is that you may not be leaving the engine with enough options for it to abide by the fatigue settings you selected.

I'm not telling you that. I may have to play you again.
haha, whatever, you're a freaking clown.
Pretty easy to look good when you take over a team full of seniors. 
2/15/2014 2:53 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mikvitu on 2/15/2014 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.
One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

Same thing works for me in minutes. If I have two point guards with one being much better than the other I usually use the 19-23 for the starter and the 9-13 for the sub and let the game dictate who gets the extra 4. It's almost always the starter unless he's in foul trouble. I think if you have more than an 8 man rotation minutes are the way to go. 

Only reason I can think your players are getting that tired is like someone said earlier, you may have guys listed across multiple positions. If that's not the case then maybe foul trouble but thats a game by game basis

Hrm that's really interesting. Going to hit you on sitemail to go further with this.

Much more productive than people probing for evidence that I did something wrong.

Because, of course, that's utterly impossible, Narcissus.
2/15/2014 2:57 PM
These threads are so boring and inconsequential, that I can't even pretend to get worked up about any of this...such a shame lol
2/15/2014 3:03 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 2/15/2014 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 2:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 11:12:00 AM (view original):
If you list the game, the time of the substitution (or lack thereof), your depth chart, and what you think should have happened, we can explainwhat happened and how to avoid it.t
There's not just one. That's the thing with all of this, on several fronts. People seem ot act like I'm reacting and complaining about a single instance. I'm not. These things are systemic and really I would think veterans wouldn't even have to be given an explanation because they would just know because surely it's happened with their teams too.

I would also think they would have been screaming to get these things fixed or leave the sim but obviously neither of those has happened in large enough quantities.
Just pick one. There's a reason for these issues and this is how to troubleshoot it.
exactly.

the thing is, etta, believe or not - the rest of us have went through these same issues. instead of just complaining, we sought help with real examples and got feedback on how to do it better. we learned. then we realized the system really wasn't so messed up after all. or in other cases, we still thought it was messed up, and there are plenty of things you will hear people complain about or be unhappy with. i think the fatigue substitution is imperfect but is not nearly as bad as you describe it. with specifics, we could review your situation and explain your troubles, or else maybe you'd convince us its more wrong than we think. but these pseudo random complaints without anything real in terms of evidence or examples is no way to advance the ball on these conversations.
Nothing pseudo random about them.

I never thought my experience was unique. With you confirming such, I don't really know why it's necessary for me to pick out specific instances (especially since there are many, in practically every game of the season with wildly different lineups, sub routines, using both fatigue and minutes) when like you said, it's all happened before. That means you know or should know what I'm talking about, but you just want a specific instance to pick on in order to say "oh well no wonder, you're trying to do this" (probably some completely realistic thing which RL teams do all the time). 

It seems like your core veteran group may be lacking actual basketball knowledge or was at the time the sim was being actively managed, and so that's why when you encountered problems, rather than going to the designers and saying "this makes you sense", you lived with it and tried to learn little workarounds for the sim's flaws. And all of the people coming after you pay for your lack of savvy and your seeming lack of desire to learn about the real game -- only to learn how to game a sim. 

So if since you've been through the same issues, through your experience you intuitively or by previous trial-and-error know what is going on, then feel free to say something. But don't ask me to set up a strawman for you. And if you think this is being overly defensive, I would refer to you the previous thread wherein I was punished and you weren't for the same things. Asymmetic punishment for veterans + you being a rather cantankerous sort among that group and one that has already given me trouble = every reason to be defensive. 
2/15/2014 3:07 PM
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Frauds try to be psychologists, fail miserably Topic

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