Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.

One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 2:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 9:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 7:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 5:35:00 AM (view original):
How do you have your depth chart set-up and what are settings for individual players foul trouble?

Most of the foul trouble setting are to play more (or whatever the wording is) because I don't want to lose someone for a whole half for just two fouls, which is what seems to happen on normal.

The depth chart changes every game, so no real way to answer that.

Bottom line is I tell the sim to sub at "fairly fresh" and I see "getting tired" and then a dead ball and still no sub. That's just ridiculous. 

Okay, let me try again. When you set the depth chart do you have four players listed for each position? Do you have players set to more to more than one position? Do you have different players listed at the same position with different foul settings? Get the drift.......

All of these things can affect whether or not a player has to be on the court more than their stamina (and the selected stamina settings) is suppose to allow. So, the real bottom line is that you may not be leaving the engine with enough options for it to abide by the fatigue settings you selected.

I'm not telling you that. I may have to play you again.

haha, whatever, you're a freaking clown.

Pretty easy to look good when you take over a team full of seniors. 

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 2:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 12:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 9:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 7:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 5:35:00 AM (view original):
How do you have your depth chart set-up and what are settings for individual players foul trouble?

Most of the foul trouble setting are to play more (or whatever the wording is) because I don't want to lose someone for a whole half for just two fouls, which is what seems to happen on normal.

The depth chart changes every game, so no real way to answer that.

Bottom line is I tell the sim to sub at "fairly fresh" and I see "getting tired" and then a dead ball and still no sub. That's just ridiculous. 

Okay, let me try again. When you set the depth chart do you have four players listed for each position? Do you have players set to more to more than one position? Do you have different players listed at the same position with different foul settings? Get the drift.......

All of these things can affect whether or not a player has to be on the court more than their stamina (and the selected stamina settings) is suppose to allow. So, the real bottom line is that you may not be leaving the engine with enough options for it to abide by the fatigue settings you selected.

I'm not telling you that. I may have to play you again.

haha, whatever, you're a freaking clown.

Pretty easy to look good when you take over a team full of seniors. 

It's just about as easy to look good when having an argument with you.

Posted by metsmax on 2/15/2014 3:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by rednu on 2/15/2014 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 2:29:00 AM (view original):
Really highly questionable from what I've seen.

If you use minutes, then if you get a guy in foul trouble everything goes to heck and he's tired but playing the whole second because the sim wants to get him his minutes. Hilariously simplistic.

If you use fatigue, the game doesn't take the guy out when you say to. I've seen guys staying in when they're getting tired they're supposed to be coming out at fairly fresh, and they're the 4th team at their position! Not surprisingly, that's when the opponent makes the run that constitutes the daily 5 minute mystery tonight.

I'm not really sure what's complicated about the orders that the sim messes it up.

Everyone says this way is better than minutes but I'm seeing a lot of the same problems, and really more of them because the sim isn't following the orders.

One hint if you're wanting to use minutes that I found during my early days of the game (before switching to fatigue settings) is to under-allocate the minutes. For instance, there's 200 minutes in a regulation game for the five players on the floor. I would try to only allocate 160 or so of those when setting the spreads. What happens is in close games, those "extra" minutes get given to your starters, so if you've targeted a player for 18-22 minutes...they might actually play 24 or 25 because the game is close and there's this pool of leftover minutes that need given to someone. On the flipside, if you're unleashing an epic butt kicking on your opponent, those minutes go to the backups (or at least they do if you have the "when winning and game is out of reach play backups more' box checked, which is a constant for me).

It isn't a perfect solution, but it does mitigate the impact of the foul trouble nightmare when using target minutes (a lot of times I has players set for 14-18 minutes, so if a guy gets three quick fouls in the first half and only plays 3-4 minutes, he only needs to be in 10-11 in the second half to satisfy the window and the sim engine will start subbing in for him at tired levels).

underallocating the minutes has long been discussed as a useful part of the minutes approach - I have done so, forgot to mention it in prior post.  I think it relaxes the constraints on the SIM

 

So if since you've been through the same issues, through your experience you intuitively or by previous trial-and-error know what is going on, then feel free to say something.

Posted by metsmax on 2/15/2014 3:58:00 PM (view original):
Debate teams learn that calling someone a clown - or calling them anything - is a path to defeat.  As a once upon a time debater and coach, we learned to make arguments, listen, respond and extend.  The guys weren't on the debate team are the ones who are apt to argue ad hominem.

on topic - try limiting your allocation to apx 195 mins at top of range

Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 4:21:00 PM (view original):

 

So if since you've been through the same issues, through your experience you intuitively or by previous trial-and-error know what is going on, then feel free to say something.

That's what we're trying to do.  There are multiple things that can make the substitutions not match what you tried to accomplish with your depth chart.  We want a specific example to explain which of those things it is.  As noted, it's possible it's something we haven't seen before, and we'd find that really interesting.  This is not a gotcha operation.  There is a reason for a disconnect between depth chart settings and substitutions and we can discover what it is.

Then just say what those things are...chances are they've probably all happened.

I don't really have time to go back through all my pbps and look for every example of bad subs. If there's one in tonights game I could post it, but then if I lose a number of people will inevitably claim that I'm just posting it because we lost (as if losing has not become a regular occurrence), so then I'm in a no-win.

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/15/2014 4:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 2/15/2014 4:22:00 PM (view original):
No, clown sounds about right...not an argument just an observation. I mean, if you're not a clown, then why do you flop around like an imbecile and let people laugh at you???

Reported. Should have reported the last one.

Posted by llamanunts on 2/15/2014 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Then just say what those things are...chances are they've probably all happened.

People have said them - they involve players listed at multiple positions on the depth chart, possible blank spaces in the depth chart (which can be really useful), foul settings, and other variables.  I want you to have a specific answer about a specific situation to start with.

I don't really have time to go back through all my pbps and look for every example of bad subs. If there's one in tonights game I could post it, but then if I lose a number of people will inevitably claim that I'm just posting it because we lost (as if losing has not become a regular occurrence), so then I'm in a no-win.

I'm not asking you to do that.  I'm asking for one example - if there's one in tonight's game, please post it.  If somebody claims you're posting it just because you lost, then the rest of us will correct and make fun of that person because we all know that's not the reason you will have posted it.*  There is an answer to be found and we'll find it.

*OFFICIAL NOTICE TO ALL: I have requested that ettaexpress post an example of the depth chart/substitution malfunctions encountered when using fatigue vs. minutes.  If the post happens, it's to provide an example to look into and has nothing to do with the outcome of the game.  You're a dummy if you post otherwise.  So there.

Posted by metsmax on 2/15/2014 5:23:00 PM (view original):
I may be slow, but I dont know what I would do to exploit the info if I knew the exact depth chart settings of an opponent in most any situation.  There are a handful of times when I would have wished that I knew more about depth chart sequences when trying - in vain - to set up specific matchups.....I dont see meaningful competitive value.  Unless of course some user has thought of something new.