"Subbing in 5 guys at a time is kind of crazy anyway unless that's your system or you're just ****** at your whole starting lineup (Dean Smith's "blue" team)."

I think this statement gets at the root cause of a lot of the substitution issues - players tire more easily and therefore more substitutions are required in HD compared to real-life basketball. That's a fair criticism of the game. I don't mind the issue, though, in that the fatigue requires HD coaches to recruit for depth, account for the opposing team's backups when game planning, and so forth. I think it is harder to build a successful team when you have to play ten guys (or 11 or 12 with a press team). For me, the challenge of worrying about the extra subs/depth outweighs the lack of realism of that aspect of the game.

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/16/2014 4:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/16/2014 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/16/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Yeah. Because long scoring droughts NEVER happen in real life.

http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2014/02/33445/scoring-drought-costs-buckeyes-loss-michigan
http://www.nola.com/uno/index.ssf/2014/01/early_scoring_drought_dooms_un.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Cal-s-brutal-five-point-half-among-the-worst-of-?urn=ncaab-289639
http://m.journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/scoring-drought-plagues-husker-men-in-loss-to-purdue/article_745ec874-77c9-5b9a-a175-3d48ec7bdf03.html?mobile_touch=true
http://www.etbusports.com/wbasketball/news/2013-14/849/long-scoring-drought-helps-utd-pull-away-over-etbu/
http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-mens-basketball-sooners-overcome-scoring-droughts-to-beat-warhawks/article/3727823
http://www.etbusports.com/mbasketball/news/2013-14/839/first-half-scoring-drought-does-in-etbu/

That is just on the first page of the search.

I've had one pretty much every game in the last dozen. But whatever, keep being unhelpful.

Cue the people crying "oh he's just trying to help and you're being such a big, brutish meanie!"

This is really more on topic for the other thread though anyway.

You did mention it here; and the reason you see extended droughts is because your team isn't all that offensively potent. In subsequent seasons, as the team got better, you would expect to see less of them.

Check the other thread. Would like to keep this one on sub issues or somewhere near it.

Thought originally that the two might be related, but it doesn't seem they are.

Subs were a complete disaster tonight, significantly contributing to the game getting out of hand.

Charles Bellamy shows as tiring at 11:55 left in the first half. There are 4 separate times when subs are made, he's never one of them. Score is 15-15.
At 7:48 he shows as tired and Lewis as tiring.  There are 6 separate times when subs are made, he's never one of them  Score is 18-17.
At 3:38 he shows as very tired, with Lewis and Stromain as tiring. (Lewis came out at 7:46.) Score is  28-21.
Bellamy FINALLY comes out with 1:08 left in the half, after playing nearly 16 minutes! Score was 32-24. That was pretty much the end of any upset hope.

Second half almost the same thing happened only with Monier. He played from 19:51 to 10:15. Then Bellamy came in (technically at 10:33) and was played the rest of the game.

Not saying we should or would have won, but that sure didn't help and it makes no sense that it happened. 

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/17/2014 2:34:00 AM (view original):
Subs were a complete disaster tonight, significantly contributing to the game getting out of hand.

Charles Bellamy shows as tiring at 11:55 left in the first half. There are 4 separate times when subs are made, he's never one of them. Score is 15-15.
At 7:48 he shows as tired and Lewis as tiring.  There are 6 separate times when subs are made, he's never one of them  Score is 18-17.
At 3:38 he shows as very tired, with Lewis and Stromain as tiring. (Lewis came out at 7:46.) Score is  28-21.
Bellamy FINALLY comes out with 1:08 left in the half, after playing nearly 16 minutes! Score was 32-24. That was pretty much the end of any upset hope.

Second half almost the same thing happened only with Monier. He played from 19:51 to 10:15. Then Bellamy came in (technically at 10:33) and was played the rest of the game.

Not saying we should or would have won, but that sure didn't help and it makes no sense that it happened. 

You beat the spread at least.

What did you have Bellamy set at?

2nd at SF, PF and C I think. That or 3rd at C. Monier 3rd at PF and C (or the opposite). Bellamy set to 24-28 min, Monier 19-23 (fouled out). At least Bellamy played well. Morris was set to play 14-18, played 23 and was terrible.

Yeah at least I didn't go nachopuzzle and lose to the spread by 62 points.

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/17/2014 3:34:00 AM (view original):
2nd at SF, PF and C I think. That or 3rd at C. Monier 3rd at PF and C (or the opposite). Bellamy set to 24-28 min, Monier 19-23 (fouled out). At least Bellamy played well. Morris was set to play 14-18, played 23 and was terrible.

Yeah at least I didn't go nachopuzzle and lose to the spread by 62 points.

That's what happens when you have a terrible team defense like we do, and like you do....the only real difference is that I haven't acted like a petulant child for the past 3 weeks because I refused to accept that my team is horrible.

On the other hand, what is worse: Losing to an underdog because your team is miserable and those point spreads are nonsense...or...not having figured out how to properly order your depth chart despite having spent every waking moment on this website for the past month, not to mention avoiding countless numbers of expertise advice in the process???

Hold on let's compare apples to apples. You had your team set to substitute by minutes in this game, is that correct? If it is then citing their level of fatigue when they are not subbed out is fruitless. By setting to minutes you told the sim to disregard fatigue levels. This is one of the reasons most people suggest using fatigue. Once you get somewhat of a set lineup then there is a bit of tweaking you can do to get the minutes to play out for individual players pretty close to what you want.

Oh, and that was an unprovoked cheap shot at nacho......report yourself ;-)

Disclaimer: I mean nothing negative in this post.

Bellamy played 32 minutes off the bench. That sounds about right if he is set as backup at three positions.

Posted by milwood on 2/17/2014 7:48:00 AM (view original):
Hold on let's compare apples to apples. You had your team set to substitute by minutes in this game, is that correct? If it is then citing their level of fatigue when they are not subbed out is fruitless. By setting to minutes you told the sim to disregard fatigue levels. This is one of the reasons most people suggest using fatigue. Once you get somewhat of a set lineup then there is a bit of tweaking you can do to get the minutes to play out for individual players pretty close to what you want.

Oh, and that was an unprovoked cheap shot at nacho......report yourself ;-)

Disclaimer: I mean nothing negative in this post.

According to past posts, he'd like it both ways.  If he sets it for minutes, he expects WIS to sub for his players when they are tired.  If he sets it for fatigue, he's upset when the subs play too much.

Disclaimer: If you already knew about the minutes/fatigue settings, and it's information that I could've learned by studying each of your games, I apologize for insulting you

Part of the complaint with using fatigue is that a high-stamina starter will stay in the game too long.  The answer to that is to not start high-stamina players who aren't good enough to log a bunch of minutes.

By setting to minutes you told the sim to disregard fatigue levels.

This is exactly right and bears re-repeating.

I have moved completely away from minutes subbing because it leads to weird substitution patterns simply to accommodate minutes levels. The under setting of minutes, to me, seems like a smart idea to work around this issue. A suggestion i'd like to incorporate would be to allow multiple settings so promised minutes can be fulfilled within a fatigue setting system.
Another thought i have on depth charts is to watch out for setting a player as the main backup for more than one position. That player will definitely play more at one of the positions than the other. I do it often, using fatigue substitution, and they will play most or all of the backup mins at their "main" backup position, and will fill in as a backup at the other position as their fatigue dictates. The third player on the septh chart at that position will generally be the first sub at the "second" position. So, be wary at setting players as a backup at too many positions. If a player is the main backup at PG and SG, for example, and the third SG is the main backup at SF as well, then the 4th SG will get more minutes than intended. Does that make sense?
Another factor to take in when using fatigue settings is the tempo at which you play. Higher tempo uses more fatigue so players will sub more. Playing a press uses more fatigue, as well. Playing zone uses less fatigue. And so on.
The system i like to use the most is fatigue and if i have a backup who i want to use as a "6th starter" of sorts, i will set that player as the main backup for multiple positions, and have the same player as third on the depth chart at the same positions (without being a main backup at a 3rd position) so that my 4th player on the depth chart doesnt go in unless there are foul issues.
I still end up with some sub pattern issues occasionally, but i have found this to be a good working way to get my players the minutes i like.

Posted by milwood on 2/17/2014 7:48:00 AM (view original):
Hold on let's compare apples to apples. You had your team set to substitute by minutes in this game, is that correct? If it is then citing their level of fatigue when they are not subbed out is fruitless. By setting to minutes you told the sim to disregard fatigue levels. This is one of the reasons most people suggest using fatigue. Once you get somewhat of a set lineup then there is a bit of tweaking you can do to get the minutes to play out for individual players pretty close to what you want.

Oh, and that was an unprovoked cheap shot at nacho......report yourself ;-)

Disclaimer: I mean nothing negative in this post.

What was unprovoked? The guy has basically said he intends to make an enemy of me. Whatever.

I understand in principle what you're saying about fatigue not being a factor. But it's also pretty weak. Why would someone reasonable think that by telling the computer to hit a certain minutes number that they're also telling the sim that they don't care about tiredness, just leave the guy even if you ahve rested subs. Never mind that Bellamy played well above the number specified. This is the worst I've seen all year with minutes by far -- usually the sim seemed to at least pretend to care about such issues. 

I don't intend to ever have a set lineup, unless I have comparable defenders at every position (which i don't anticipate happening). Since you can't set matchups by player in man to man, to maximize your defensive effectiveness among the players you have, it makes sense to me to change their position, since there's little to no penalty for that. 

For the record, I did underset minutes, by quite a bit.

Posted by milwood on 2/17/2014 7:52:00 AM (view original):
Bellamy played 32 minutes off the bench. That sounds about right if he is set as backup at three positions.

More than he was supposed to. I figured setting his minutes to 24-28 would make sure the 3rd team (and maybe even 4th) would play more. I don't know why I would have thought anything else. and I certainly didn't think it would mean he plays 16 straight minutes, even though IRL that's not really a big deal. 

Posted by artie40 on 2/17/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
I have moved completely away from minutes subbing because it leads to weird substitution patterns simply to accommodate minutes levels. The under setting of minutes, to me, seems like a smart idea to work around this issue. A suggestion i'd like to incorporate would be to allow multiple settings so promised minutes can be fulfilled within a fatigue setting system.
Another thought i have on depth charts is to watch out for setting a player as the main backup for more than one position. That player will definitely play more at one of the positions than the other. I do it often, using fatigue substitution, and they will play most or all of the backup mins at their "main" backup position, and will fill in as a backup at the other position as their fatigue dictates. The third player on the septh chart at that position will generally be the first sub at the "second" position. So, be wary at setting players as a backup at too many positions. If a player is the main backup at PG and SG, for example, and the third SG is the main backup at SF as well, then the 4th SG will get more minutes than intended. Does that make sense?
Another factor to take in when using fatigue settings is the tempo at which you play. Higher tempo uses more fatigue so players will sub more. Playing a press uses more fatigue, as well. Playing zone uses less fatigue. And so on.
The system i like to use the most is fatigue and if i have a backup who i want to use as a "6th starter" of sorts, i will set that player as the main backup for multiple positions, and have the same player as third on the depth chart at the same positions (without being a main backup at a 3rd position) so that my 4th player on the depth chart doesnt go in unless there are foul issues.
I still end up with some sub pattern issues occasionally, but i have found this to be a good working way to get my players the minutes i like.

This is pretty much what I set...two guys 2nd and 3rd backups at 2 diff positions. But since I also had minutes set, I figured those minutes would be adhered to in an intelligent way, rather than "play the hell out of the 2nd guy until he breaks, then bring in the 3rd guy" or whatever it is the computer was thinking.

This is an issue that was overcome in other sims I've played a decade ago.