Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/7/2014 6:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nickguy08 on 5/7/2014 6:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 6:08:00 PM (view original):
I've never heard of any really good coach in HD that doesn't use FSS fairly extensively. It doesn't matter how recruiting services work in the real world. It matters how it works HERE, in HD. And in HD, the FSS is incredibly valuable. That is simply beyond debate.

If you want a more realistic experience, the service has to be wrong.

That I totally agree with. I would like to see a slightly different system but I can't think of a real good way to change it.

Isn't there an old proverb about not saying anything if you don't have something positive to add...haha.

Posted by nickguy08 on 5/7/2014 6:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 5:34:00 PM (view original):
I'd be interested in seeing what makes it so you "don't believe the costs out weigh the benefits" regarding FSS. If you scout any player(s) from a given state more than once, you could've just FSS'd that state and had reports from Future Stars for 30+ players in that state.

I coach in TX right now, in my world. I need current ratings (bottom threshold) to be at certain level to start with before I even begin. I am sure you all do that to a certain extent. At a certain level, I might get one recruit, but then that recruit might have a low WE. I expand my search range and lower my standards, now I am covering 5 states. I am not going to spend that kind of money just to see if a PG with SPD 40 is going to get better. I especially won't recruit that state if I don't see current ratings of another position at certain level within that state. Now we are talking distance and competition with other coaches. I need to lower my standards for current ratings? That doesn't make much sense either. If I can recruit to a system, I think I am much better off anyway.

I almost guarantee that you're spending more on all the scouting trips than you would if you just FSS'd the 5 states you need. And if you do all 5 at once, you get a decent discount (15-20%), which makes it even MORE affordable. And it's MUCH easier to "recruit to a system" if you actually know (within 5-10 pts) where your recruits will end up by the time they're through.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/7/2014 6:47:00 PM (view original):
In my humble opinion, at D3 (and I've even seen D2 coaches use this method almost exclusively), if you just FSS'd Texas then you'd have more than enough variety on a yearly basis to be competitive at a very very high level.

This is pretty much true. I personally think Nick just doesn't like FSS (for whatever reason) so it doesn't matter WHAT evidence is presented to show that it's a very valuable tool, no matter what "system" you run.

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nickguy08 on 5/7/2014 6:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 6:08:00 PM (view original):
I've never heard of any really good coach in HD that doesn't use FSS fairly extensively. It doesn't matter how recruiting services work in the real world. It matters how it works HERE, in HD. And in HD, the FSS is incredibly valuable. That is simply beyond debate.

If you want a more realistic experience, the service has to be wrong.

But FSS is what we actually HAVE right now. And unless you want it to be more like "Dolphinsim" (which I just did some research on), where it's just a total crapshoot in recruiting, then it's not going to change. And recruiting services in real life aren't NEARLY the crapshoot you are making them out to be. They're not perfect, but they usually get it fairly right.

LOL clearly because you don't know how to do it, it's a crapshoot. 

I used to play Dolphinsim and it's funny how certain coaches usually do well in recruiting. I'm not really trying to advertise or espouse for a competing site. Suffice it to say, you're completely wrong about it being a crapshoot. Player development is to a significant extent random, but there are ways to suss out guys that are more likely to develop, and ones that will benefit more from attribute improvements if they do come. 

I read the Dolphinsim page posted in that other thread. It SUCKS. For all its faults, HD is WAAAAAYYYY better than that.

I take it you've played it then to be able to make such a judgment?

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 7:13:00 PM (view original):
I take it you've played it then to be able to make such a judgment?

Why would I? I read the way it works, read the description of a few that had played it in a MUCH earlier thread, and I think I'd hate it. Unlike you, I don't play games I hate.

I think FSS is to much of a shotgun approach. Going out and scouting players is more rifle approach. I think tiering the FSS service would be ideal. Full cost reveals everything. 2nd grade reveals a little less, 3rd tier just enough to get a good read. There are certain ratings I could care less about.

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 7:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/7/2014 6:47:00 PM (view original):
In my humble opinion, at D3 (and I've even seen D2 coaches use this method almost exclusively), if you just FSS'd Texas then you'd have more than enough variety on a yearly basis to be competitive at a very very high level.

This is pretty much true. I personally think Nick just doesn't like FSS (for whatever reason) so it doesn't matter WHAT evidence is presented to show that it's a very valuable tool, no matter what "system" you run.

I just picked up a d3 team in Texas. I had 8 slots and like 15k. I signed 5 all ready an Will probably sign 3 more. Only two are from Texas. Howard Payne owns Delaware!

Posted by nickguy08 on 5/7/2014 8:17:00 PM (view original):
I think FSS is to much of a shotgun approach. Going out and scouting players is more rifle approach. I think tiering the FSS service would be ideal. Full cost reveals everything. 2nd grade reveals a little less, 3rd tier just enough to get a good read. There are certain ratings I could care less about.

An example:

You're graduating 2 starters, plus your top sub. In your next class, you need a PG/SG with the potential to start in a couple years, a SF that's versatile enough to back up at the PF right away, and a true C to be your main big sub. You identify 9 players that fit those criteria during the regular season, before recruiting begins. Let's say all are within the 360 mile window that makes scouting trips a lot less expensive, just to make your (in my opinion, very odd) strategy at least a bit more plausible.

If you send out even ONE scouting trip for each of the 9 players, you'll have spent, at minimum, around $1,500. If you follow up with another scouting trip on even 4 or 5 of them, that's probably another $1,000. When you narrow it down to the 3 you're going to offer on, you'll probably send at least one more scouting trip, for just under $1,000 total. And even then, you're not guaranteed that your "scout" will provide you info on the categories you're interested in. Meanwhile, you could have simply scouted Texas and whichever surrounding state you're closest to, and had MUCH more accurate information on all 9 prospects, plus perhaps many that you overlook by focusing TOO much on starting values.

As I mentioned before, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face on this issue. You're gaining absolutely nothing by not using FSS, and you're losing a LOT. And I still can't figure out why.

Posted by scaturo on 5/7/2014 8:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 7:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/7/2014 6:47:00 PM (view original):
In my humble opinion, at D3 (and I've even seen D2 coaches use this method almost exclusively), if you just FSS'd Texas then you'd have more than enough variety on a yearly basis to be competitive at a very very high level.

This is pretty much true. I personally think Nick just doesn't like FSS (for whatever reason) so it doesn't matter WHAT evidence is presented to show that it's a very valuable tool, no matter what "system" you run.

I just picked up a d3 team in Texas. I had 8 slots and like 15k. I signed 5 all ready an Will probably sign 3 more. Only two are from Texas. Howard Payne owns Delaware!

Oh yeah, for less expensive states like Delaware, FSS is a godsend! You might find a PG that's 40/50/40/50/40 in Ath/Spd/Per/BH/Pass, but blue in all, that wouldn't even show up in Nick's system.

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 7:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 7:13:00 PM (view original):
I take it you've played it then to be able to make such a judgment?

Why would I? I read the way it works, read the description of a few that had played it in a MUCH earlier thread, and I think I'd hate it. Unlike you, I don't play games I hate.

Then you have no basis at all on which to compare the two.

I do.

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 8:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 7:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 7:13:00 PM (view original):
I take it you've played it then to be able to make such a judgment?

Why would I? I read the way it works, read the description of a few that had played it in a MUCH earlier thread, and I think I'd hate it. Unlike you, I don't play games I hate.

Then you have no basis at all on which to compare the two.

I do.

Not really. You know very little about this game, and aren't really open to LEARNING anything about it. You just ***** and moan about how awful it is, and insult people who try to help you get better.

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 8:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nickguy08 on 5/7/2014 8:17:00 PM (view original):
I think FSS is to much of a shotgun approach. Going out and scouting players is more rifle approach. I think tiering the FSS service would be ideal. Full cost reveals everything. 2nd grade reveals a little less, 3rd tier just enough to get a good read. There are certain ratings I could care less about.

An example:

You're graduating 2 starters, plus your top sub. In your next class, you need a PG/SG with the potential to start in a couple years, a SF that's versatile enough to back up at the PF right away, and a true C to be your main big sub. You identify 9 players that fit those criteria during the regular season, before recruiting begins. Let's say all are within the 360 mile window that makes scouting trips a lot less expensive, just to make your (in my opinion, very odd) strategy at least a bit more plausible.

If you send out even ONE scouting trip for each of the 9 players, you'll have spent, at minimum, around $1,500. If you follow up with another scouting trip on even 4 or 5 of them, that's probably another $1,000. When you narrow it down to the 3 you're going to offer on, you'll probably send at least one more scouting trip, for just under $1,000 total. And even then, you're not guaranteed that your "scout" will provide you info on the categories you're interested in. Meanwhile, you could have simply scouted Texas and whichever surrounding state you're closest to, and had MUCH more accurate information on all 9 prospects, plus perhaps many that you overlook by focusing TOO much on starting values.

As I mentioned before, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face on this issue. You're gaining absolutely nothing by not using FSS, and you're losing a LOT. And I still can't figure out why.

Why do you care? And why should he listen to you? You've got as many championships as he does.

Obviously he doesn't think he's cutting off his nose to spite his face, and he seems to have some background from which to be able to make such a judgment. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

One thing you gain by not using FSS is obvious...money. So it's not accurate to say you gain nothing by not using it. 

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 8:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 8:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wildcat98 on 5/7/2014 7:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 5/7/2014 7:13:00 PM (view original):
I take it you've played it then to be able to make such a judgment?

Why would I? I read the way it works, read the description of a few that had played it in a MUCH earlier thread, and I think I'd hate it. Unlike you, I don't play games I hate.

Then you have no basis at all on which to compare the two.

I do.

Not really. You know very little about this game, and aren't really open to LEARNING anything about it. You just ***** and moan about how awful it is, and insult people who try to help you get better.

Anything I know about this game is by definition more than you know about Dolphinsim, since you've never played it.

I don't think you have any idea what I know about the game. You don't know who I've talked to on site mail, or what we've talked about, or what I've learned other ways. All you do is follow me around the board acting like I'm the worst thing since Adolf Hitler. 

I recruited a player from Delaware too...does that make me a frickin' genius or something?