Minimum Wage Topic

And the dumb get dumber.
6/24/2014 7:24 PM
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 4:53:00 PM (view original):
Or put another way if you were used to paying 0% tax and all of a sudden you were charged 23% would you not spend a whole lot less money?
The fair tax has subsidies for those in poverty.... So glad you know what you are talking about. Its all spelled out at Fairfax.org.
6/24/2014 8:12 PM
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/24/2014 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/24/2014 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, I've answered that several times.   I've suggested that the tax money brought in by taxing illegals, illegally made money, foreign tourist dollars and eliminating loopholes for the rich will more than make up the money "lost" by taxing those who do not pay taxes an extra 15% or so on purchases.   People will figure out a way to make it work.   And, if I'm correct, the sales tax will go down from 23%(or whatever number was thrown out as the "average" amount taxed) due to the sources of untapped tax revenue.  Will there be an adjustment period?  Sure.   Omelet, eggs, you know the story.
So your tax is above 23%? Congrats you are obviously in the upper middle class. Apparently the bottom 50% pay less then 2% of the total income tax. What I asked obviously doesn't affect you. I wasn't asking how it would affect you. So yet again you barely half way answered my question. I will ask it again, but in language you couldn't possibly misunderstand. If you force the bottom 50% to pay more tax will the economy suffer?

I don't think so.  People still have to buy goods, seek shelter, get transportation.   What once cost $1 will now be $1.23.   However, your $100 paycheck will be $123.  So the money will still be there.   The people who don't pay tax, or pay very little tax, seem to get it back in the early part of the year with tax returns.   That won't happen but they will have more money for the rest of the year.   And, if I'm correct, the money collected from illegals, illegally made money, foreign tourist dollars and eliminated tax loopholes, will allow the govt to reduce the 23% sales tax to a lower number in the future.

And, as an added benefit, everyone will feel that they're a contributing part of society.  No longer will anyone have to hang their head in shame when someone else says "I pay my taxes.  I can complain about the roads!!" because they don't pay taxes. 

omg seriously?  i honestly thought I asked the question right this time so that you would understand the point I am trying to make.  But it seems you arent getting it.  Maybe you are like Obama in that you dont understand what it is to be so poor that you have no choice but to eat KD every day.  If the bottom 50% are used to paying 0 income tax they have X dollars.  Now if all of a sudden they have to pay X dollars plus 23% retail sales tax they will have that much less money to spend.  Their pay checks arent going to go up by 23% unless you propose a rebate check that the bottom 50% get.  At which point I am fully on board with your plan.  But I suspect that those rebate checks will last only so long then the bottom 50% are going to be royally screwed.  Which seems to be all you are about MikeT.  ???
Fair tax has a rebate. Look it up. Also sin taxes right now on smokes and booze are pretty high as it is... 23% maybe... And poor buy those items more than high net worth individuals.

Edit....

"New York State imposes an excise tax on cigarettes at the rate of $4.35 per package of twenty cigarettes. New York City imposes a local excise tax at the rate of $1.50 per package of twenty cigarettes, bringing the combined tax rate in New York City to $5.85.". So the tax on smokes in NY is over 50% already.
6/24/2014 8:43 PM (edited)
Posted by bad_luck on 6/24/2014 6:14:00 PM (view original):
So now the Feds are going to dictate what tax rates each state and city charge?
Jesus H ******* Christ.... READ THE ******* FAIR TAX WEBSITE.... It all spelled out. Go to the FAQ for the cliff notes but for **** sakes educate yourselves before you speak. I pointed out this website at least 3-4 times almost 30 pages ago.
6/24/2014 8:48 PM (edited)
that fairtax website looks like it was made for and by rich people.  As its them that will benefit by this.  Come on no corporate income tax?  Who are we fooling here?  Are people that want this so-called fairtax really so silly to believe that corporations will simply pass on the savings to their customers?  Profit taking is all that will happen there.  Not to mention fair tax will also remove estate taxes and all those other taxes that nearly exclusively benefit the rich.  Where is that money going to come from?  I am not completely poo-pooing the idea, in some ways it sounds like a good idea.  It will reduce bureaucracy quite a bit.

But truly if all this fairtax replaces is the lowest 15% income tax rate and the 7% payroll taxes where is the money coming from to cover the rest of the taxes that it doesnt replace?  seems to me that the government is going to rake in a lot less tax then it does today.  Im not convinced that this will work.  After all you Americans need to keep that insanely huge military budget right?
6/24/2014 8:59 PM
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 8:59:00 PM (view original):
that fairtax website looks like it was made for and by rich people.  As its them that will benefit by this.  Come on no corporate income tax?  Who are we fooling here?  Are people that want this so-called fairtax really so silly to believe that corporations will simply pass on the savings to their customers?  Profit taking is all that will happen there.  Not to mention fair tax will also remove estate taxes and all those other taxes that nearly exclusively benefit the rich.  Where is that money going to come from?  I am not completely poo-pooing the idea, in some ways it sounds like a good idea.  It will reduce bureaucracy quite a bit.

But truly if all this fairtax replaces is the lowest 15% income tax rate and the 7% payroll taxes where is the money coming from to cover the rest of the taxes that it doesnt replace?  seems to me that the government is going to rake in a lot less tax then it does today.  Im not convinced that this will work.  After all you Americans need to keep that insanely huge military budget right?
Ugh!

No it does not replace property tax. Read the damn site. Do we care if corporations pass the savings on? The free market will dictate the price if you let it. Remember that BH said the law of supply and demand always works.

Where does the extra revenue come from.... For starters those that are crossing the borders in droves since the dream act. Also most services are not currently taxed, but will be, and that's the fastest growing segment of our economy.


And yes, like any tax proposal its worthless if the US can't prioritize and ultimately reduce its spending.
6/24/2014 9:50 PM (edited)
Posted by moy23 on 6/24/2014 9:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 8:59:00 PM (view original):
that fairtax website looks like it was made for and by rich people.  As its them that will benefit by this.  Come on no corporate income tax?  Who are we fooling here?  Are people that want this so-called fairtax really so silly to believe that corporations will simply pass on the savings to their customers?  Profit taking is all that will happen there.  Not to mention fair tax will also remove estate taxes and all those other taxes that nearly exclusively benefit the rich.  Where is that money going to come from?  I am not completely poo-pooing the idea, in some ways it sounds like a good idea.  It will reduce bureaucracy quite a bit.

But truly if all this fairtax replaces is the lowest 15% income tax rate and the 7% payroll taxes where is the money coming from to cover the rest of the taxes that it doesnt replace?  seems to me that the government is going to rake in a lot less tax then it does today.  Im not convinced that this will work.  After all you Americans need to keep that insanely huge military budget right?
Ugh!

No it does not replace property tax. Read the damn site. Do we care if corporations pass the savings on? The free market will dictate the price if you let it. Remember that BH said the law of supply and demand always works.

Where does the extra revenue come from.... For starters those that are crossing the borders in droves since the dream act. Also most services are not currently taxed, but will be, and that's the fastest growing segment of our economy.


And yes, like any tax proposal its worthless if the US can't prioritize and ultimately reduce its spending.
An excerpt from the fairtax website:

Exactly what taxes are abolished?

The FairTax is replacement, not reform. It replaces federal income taxes including personal, estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes.




so, why did you say UGH! exactly?  I said estate tax, fairtax says estate tax will be abolished.  Read the damn site yourself!

That is a whole lot of different taxes that the government is losing wouldnt you say?  And most as Ive said already really only affect rich people.  IMHO this is a thinly disguised tax break for rich people.  nothing more.

If I being Canadian coming into America have to pay 23% more then I did before this new tax I can assure you I wont be buying much.  Right now things are probably 15-20% cheaper in the States then in my beloved country, but when I have to pay 23% more I dont see the point in cross border shopping anymore, and I bet most people vacationing in the States will feel the same way.  I might think that there will be a reduction in travelers coming to America, because that vacation that was going to cost 3,000 will now cost 4,000.  

6/24/2014 10:22 PM
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 6/24/2014 9:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by greeny9 on 6/24/2014 8:59:00 PM (view original):
that fairtax website looks like it was made for and by rich people.  As its them that will benefit by this.  Come on no corporate income tax?  Who are we fooling here?  Are people that want this so-called fairtax really so silly to believe that corporations will simply pass on the savings to their customers?  Profit taking is all that will happen there.  Not to mention fair tax will also remove estate taxes and all those other taxes that nearly exclusively benefit the rich.  Where is that money going to come from?  I am not completely poo-pooing the idea, in some ways it sounds like a good idea.  It will reduce bureaucracy quite a bit.

But truly if all this fairtax replaces is the lowest 15% income tax rate and the 7% payroll taxes where is the money coming from to cover the rest of the taxes that it doesnt replace?  seems to me that the government is going to rake in a lot less tax then it does today.  Im not convinced that this will work.  After all you Americans need to keep that insanely huge military budget right?
Ugh!

No it does not replace property tax. Read the damn site. Do we care if corporations pass the savings on? The free market will dictate the price if you let it. Remember that BH said the law of supply and demand always works.

Where does the extra revenue come from.... For starters those that are crossing the borders in droves since the dream act. Also most services are not currently taxed, but will be, and that's the fastest growing segment of our economy.


And yes, like any tax proposal its worthless if the US can't prioritize and ultimately reduce its spending.
An excerpt from the fairtax website:

Exactly what taxes are abolished?

The FairTax is replacement, not reform. It replaces federal income taxes including personal, estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes.




so, why did you say UGH! exactly?  I said estate tax, fairtax says estate tax will be abolished.  Read the damn site yourself!

That is a whole lot of different taxes that the government is losing wouldnt you say?  And most as Ive said already really only affect rich people.  IMHO this is a thinly disguised tax break for rich people.  nothing more.

If I being Canadian coming into America have to pay 23% more then I did before this new tax I can assure you I wont be buying much.  Right now things are probably 15-20% cheaper in the States then in my beloved country, but when I have to pay 23% more I dont see the point in cross border shopping anymore, and I bet most people vacationing in the States will feel the same way.  I might think that there will be a reduction in travelers coming to America, because that vacation that was going to cost 3,000 will now cost 4,000.  

My bad.... I mistook estate for property. Side effects from booze.

People will still vacation to america the same way americans vacationed in Europe when the euro was something like 1.8 to 1 on the dollar. Taxes are already 12% in Chicago yet tourism is still bigger there than in Carbondale where taxes are 6%ish. Really doesn't concern me.

Honestly.... Dig deeper on the website.... The fair tax is revenue neutral per multiple 3rd party studies. There is also a chart demonstrating that CPE is a more consistant source of tax revenue than AGI since 1974 and they use real data over that span to show it. Abolishing the IRS is a win for the little people who can't afford accountants to dodge taxes.... This system eliminates lobbying which IMO is the death of the little guy (cause only the wealthy can afford lobbyists). No more tax loopholes for the rich. Social Security gets a shot of adrenaline since now EVERYONE pays in but only those that worked get paid out. 0% corporate tax will create more manufacturing jobs through foreign investment which are much needed 'good' paying jobs. Lots of benefits to the little guy. Bringing home ALL my income is a huge benefit. I may actually spend more because I 'feel' like I make more. Not being taxed on gains is huge ... So what if the wealthy gain from it.... I also gain from it. Unlike libs I'm not infatuated with the 1%, and I don't hate them.
6/25/2014 7:36 AM (edited)
Posted by moy23 on 6/24/2014 8:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/24/2014 6:14:00 PM (view original):
So now the Feds are going to dictate what tax rates each state and city charge?
Jesus H ******* Christ.... READ THE ******* FAIR TAX WEBSITE.... It all spelled out. Go to the FAQ for the cliff notes but for **** sakes educate yourselves before you speak. I pointed out this website at least 3-4 times almost 30 pages ago.
I used 23% because that's what someone said the "average" citizen paid.     Since state and local taxes aren't the same throughout the country now, I see no reason why they'd have to be under a sales tax only plan.    Feds say "We want 12%."   NY says "We need 9%."   Buffalo says "We gonna need 3%."   Goods/services purchased in Buffalo, NY are taxed at 24%.     Move on down to AL.   Feds still want 12%.    AL says "Meh, we need 7%."   Birmingham says "****, 1% sounds good to us."   Goods/services in Birmingham, AL are taxed at 20%.    Pretty simple, eh?
6/25/2014 8:05 AM
What about b2b sales? If I sell a component piece to a company that makes a product, do they pay a tax on that component?
6/25/2014 9:24 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/25/2014 9:24:00 AM (view original):
What about b2b sales? If I sell a component piece to a company that makes a product, do they pay a tax on that component?
No. Only the end user pays taxes when the good or service is bought.

The thought is it will reduce the cost of producing goods because they don't get taxed 15 times along the way.... And through competition drive the end price down which offsets the 23% sales tax for the consumer.


The FAQ has all of this in it. Its a really good tax system.... Its fair and best of all its simple.
6/25/2014 10:34 AM (edited)
Posted by moy23 on 6/25/2014 10:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/25/2014 9:24:00 AM (view original):
What about b2b sales? If I sell a component piece to a company that makes a product, do they pay a tax on that component?
No. Only the end user pays taxes when the good or service is bought.

The thought is it will reduce the cost of producing goods because they don't get taxed 15 times along the way.... And through competition drive the end price down which offsets the 23% sales tax for the consumer.


The FAQ has all of this in it. Its a really good tax system.... Its fair and best of all its simple.
So if I run a small construction company and buy a truck, no sales tax?
6/25/2014 10:39 AM
A truck is not a component piece, and your company is the end user with respect to the truck.  I would think that you would pay sales tax.
6/25/2014 11:04 AM
And lowering (or eliminating) corporate taxes will keep some of those businesses in the US rather than fleeing to other countries with more corporation-friendly tax laws, which means MORE jobs which means MORE tax revenue.

Liberals always seem to miss that point when crying for higher corporate taxes.
6/25/2014 11:26 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/25/2014 10:39:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 6/25/2014 10:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/25/2014 9:24:00 AM (view original):
What about b2b sales? If I sell a component piece to a company that makes a product, do they pay a tax on that component?
No. Only the end user pays taxes when the good or service is bought.

The thought is it will reduce the cost of producing goods because they don't get taxed 15 times along the way.... And through competition drive the end price down which offsets the 23% sales tax for the consumer.


The FAQ has all of this in it. Its a really good tax system.... Its fair and best of all its simple.
So if I run a small construction company and buy a truck, no sales tax?
From the FAQ.... The answer is no sales tax for the business. See below.



Does the FairTax tax used items?

The FairTax does not tax "used" goods but it is important to note that HR25 has a legal definition of the term "used". This is necessary to ensure that items are taxed only once and to prevent tax cheating.

Under the FairTax, for an item to be considered "used" it must be:

(1) purchased before the FairTax is enacted, or

(2) the FairTax on the item must have been previously paid.

Let's look at (1) above. Assume that Joe bought a new car in January of 2012. Let's further assume that the FairTax went into effect on Jan. 1, 2013. Since Joe owned the car before the enactment of the FairTax, it is considered a "used" car. It has the taxes from the existing tax system embedded in its price. Therefore, when Joe sells that car to Bill, Bill will not owe tax on the transaction.

Now, let's consider (2) above. The most common example is that Joe buys a new car for personal use and pays the FairTax on it. If Joe then sells his car to Bill, there would be no tax on it because the tax had already been paid. Let's look at another example. Assume that Joe owns a flower shop business and buys a van to use when making deliveries to his customers. No tax is charged on purchases for business purposes so that the FairTax on goods sold to consumers does not double tax, or put a tax on a tax.

If Joe decides to sell the van to his friend Bill (who is not in business) for use as his personal vehicle, then it would be a taxable sale to Bill. Why? Because Joe did not pay tax when he bought the van for his flower shop. Since no FairTax has been previously paid on that van, it is not considered used and the sale to Bill would be taxable.

If later, Bill decided he did not like driving a van and sold it to someone else, it would not be a taxable sale. Why? Because the tax had been previously paid (when Bill bought it from Joe) making the item "used"; and not subject to tax.
6/25/2014 11:30 AM
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