Adrian Beltre Topic

burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 7/28/2014 1:59:00 PM (view original):
That's funny. I'd argue that defense today is better than it was in the 1970s.
We're talking in relative terms though.  
7/28/2014 2:14 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.
Not really.  I'm saying, in 1970, that a guy who could hit but not field a "defensive position" at the highest level, was moved in favor of a Mark Belanger.    Now, they stay put if their offense makes up for the D.   And, as a result, acceptable D is less than it was 40 years ago.
I disagree in the aspect that you still need to play the position at an acceptable level.  Maybe the level is moved much, but you can't play 2B like Alfonso Soriano, otherwise you're moved to the outfield.  

Even so - someone who can play a position like 2B, SS, 3B, and hit really well?  Is still relatively hard to find.  Beltre is special for that reason.  Plays 3B (really well, but that's kinda besides the point) and looks like he's going to compile fantastic numbers.  Makes him one of the best 3B we've ever seen.  Easily top 10, arguably as high as 6 or so, which puts him in the conversation for HOF.  And it's hard to not allow the guy who gets 3000 hits in, regardless of the position.
I'm glad you brought up Soriano because I was thinking about his career.

In 1970, he never sees 2B.   He was horrible at SS in his minor league career and was slated to play LF.   But Knoblauch forgot how to throw so Soriano was moved to 2B.  He wasn't very good at it but the Yanks, and the Rangers, said "30/30 from a guy who's not the worst 2B ever at second?   We'll take it."   And he played a lot of games at 2B until he was traded to Wash(who had Vidro who could OPS .750 AND play 2B).   So the initial plan was back in place.  LF.

I'll add that Jeter never plays SS in 1970.  He had at least one, and I think it was two, 50+ error seasons in the minors.    He's moved to 3B or LF well before he hits the bigs in the 70s. 

So there's a level you need to perform at.  It may have moved a touch, but I don't think it's moved as much as you think it does.  There aren't many guys who can perform at such a level defensively and also be able to hit very well.  Miggy Cabrera kind of tip-toes that line - is he more valuable at 3B, where he's essentially a butcher, but allows you to get a slugger at 1B, or more valuable at 1B, where his ****** defense is easier to hide?
Yeah, we obviously disagree with how much it's moved.    But you brought up Soriano.   He learned 2B on the fly and played close to 800 games there.   So, obviously, you can play 2B like Soriano a long time before you're moved to the OF.  

7/28/2014 2:29 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/28/2014 1:59:00 PM (view original):
That's funny. I'd argue that defense today is better than it was in the 1970s.
We're talking in relative terms though.  
I'd argue that athletes are better conditioned, just plain better athletes with better coaching/training and that equipment/fields are better today.   I'd argue that Babe Ruth is a just a fat guy fighting for a roster spot today.  But we're not transferring 1927 Ruth to 2014 MLB.    So laugh it up, laughingboy. 
7/28/2014 2:31 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
He played SS before that, so no, it's not "on the fly."  If you have experience playing SS, a switch to 2B isn't difficult.  A move to 3B would have been more difficult, and that's been done with ease by many.

Soriano is probably like Cabrera in that he teeters on that "are you good enough" when it comes to playing a tougher defensive position.  Soriano mashing the ball at 2B allows the Yankees to get mashers in left and right field.  They probably thought they're better off doing that, rather than putting Soriano in the outfield and trying to find a better fielding 2nd baseman who could hit.  

Regardless, Soriano has the ability to play 2B, which makes him better than what...80% of MLB position players at being able to play 2B?  That adds value.  That's the point re: Beltre.

7/28/2014 2:44 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
SS and 2B aren't the same.  You receive the ball differently, you throw the ball differently.  It's silly to say "Same position".    I can't really have a serious exchange if you really believe that.  That's like saying "It's a ground ball.  Just field it and throw it."

And now you're waffling on Soriano as a 2B.   What happened to "you can't play 2B like Alfonso Soriano, otherwise you're moved to the outfield"?  

7/28/2014 2:51 PM
bad_luck
Posts: 21761 (0)
Hall of Famer
48 1 10
Prospect
Almost all major league second basemen were shortstops in the minors. Very few players are drafted as second basemen
7/28/2014 2:57 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
I didn't say "same position." (unless I did...i didn't mean it.)  But they're very similar.  Arm strength is much more important at SS. There's not much more of a difference.  2B is certainly easier than SS.

I honestly forgot how long Soriano played 2B.  I remember him being poor at the position.  I figured he was an outfielder by the time he was traded for ARod. But the fact that he was wasn't very good at it, and stayed there anyway, shows you the value of getting great offensive numbers at the position.  Because it isn't common.  
7/28/2014 2:57 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
The only aspect I can think of that makes 2B harder than SS is turning a double play.  Unless you're left-handed...

ha...ha........ha....
7/28/2014 2:59 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 7/28/2014 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Almost all major league second basemen were shortstops in the minors. Very few players are drafted as second basemen
Yes.  And if it looks like you can't handle SS, you're moved, and hopefully your bat is good enough.  
7/28/2014 3:03 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Well, ****.   Almost every major league ballplayer was a SS or a pitcher in HS.    So there's that.   They just happen to be the best athletes. 
7/28/2014 3:52 PM
dahsdebater
Posts: 10036 (0)
Hall of Famer
284 270 18
Pro
The difference is that what they said is true, and what you said isn't.  The majority of ML outfielders were outfielders in high school, the majority of catchers were catchers, and the majority of CIF were 3B.  I guess a lot of them did pitch, but the SS part just really isn't true...
7/28/2014 3:54 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect

Source?

I won't disgree with the catcher part but I doubt the rest.

7/28/2014 4:07 PM
05nomar05
Posts: 4175 (0)
Hall of Famer
19 7 2 83 7
Prospect
Frank Thomas was a awesome SS in High School.  Should have stayed there.  Would have been a 1st ballot Hall of Fam......
7/28/2014 4:10 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Well, the lefthanders probably weren't SS either but I think you understand the point.    The best HS players play SS or pitch.   Unless they're 6'6" or are lefthanded.   Where a player started in the minors is pretty irrelevant. 
7/28/2014 4:24 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 3:52:00 PM (view original):
Well, ****.   Almost every major league ballplayer was a SS or a pitcher in HS.    So there's that.   They just happen to be the best athletes. 
I think you're overstating it somewhat.  If you're a masher in high school, there's a good chance you're too big for SS.  And even if you're right...so?
7/28/2014 4:24 PM
◂ Prev 1...12|13|14|15|16...24 Next ▸
Adrian Beltre Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.