Adrian Beltre Topic

tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
7/28/2014 12:40 PM
bad_luck
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And they overpaid because it's much more difficult to find a guy that can hit like Ellsbury and play CF.
7/28/2014 12:42 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.
7/28/2014 12:44 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.
You need to get to the point.    Gardner was a CF.  I think he still could be.   Ellsbury hits more homers, steals more bases.   He's a better hitter.

I think that stealing a player from a division opponent plays into the equation.   They get worse, you get better. 
7/28/2014 12:47 PM
MikeT23
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But, again, that wasn't the point I was making.  I believe, back in the day, that teams were more "defense first" at a few positions.    They would take a Jeter or a Ripken, move them to 3B and find a Mark Belanger to play SS.    I think teams now look at it as more of a plus/minus game.   Yeah, Jeter and Ripken are going to cost your some outs in the field but will they more than make up for it a the plate?    If so, they stay at SS. 

7/28/2014 12:51 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.

FWIW, I think Gardner is overpaid as well.

I'd rate them equally.  Ellsbury with a slight offensive advantage, Gardner with the defensive advantage.  Offense and defense offset each other.

7/28/2014 12:52 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.

FWIW, I think Gardner is overpaid as well.

I'd rate them equally.  Ellsbury with a slight offensive advantage, Gardner with the defensive advantage.  Offense and defense offset each other.

So you're also confused as to why Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner.  Fair enough.
7/28/2014 12:57 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.
You need to get to the point.    Gardner was a CF.  I think he still could be.   Ellsbury hits more homers, steals more bases.   He's a better hitter.

I think that stealing a player from a division opponent plays into the equation.   They get worse, you get better. 
Your position plays into your value.  To hit like a .780 OPS guy with speed, or whatever Ellsbury is, isn't **** if you can only play 1B or RF.  But as a center fielder, it's very valuable.  Because those people don't exist too much, so they get paid around $20M a year.

Gardner's getting paid like a left fielder.  I think he has the range for CF, and could get close to what Ellsbury makes if he played CF.  They aren't much different offensively.  
7/28/2014 1:01 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.

FWIW, I think Gardner is overpaid as well.

I'd rate them equally.  Ellsbury with a slight offensive advantage, Gardner with the defensive advantage.  Offense and defense offset each other.

So you're also confused as to why Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner.  Fair enough.
I'm not confused about it at all.  I already explained why that is.  Open market FA versus non-open market FA.

Are you confused why salaries are different between FA's who go on the open market as opposed to those who don't?

Don't you play HBD?  This happens there all the time.

7/28/2014 1:02 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:51:00 PM (view original):

But, again, that wasn't the point I was making.  I believe, back in the day, that teams were more "defense first" at a few positions.    They would take a Jeter or a Ripken, move them to 3B and find a Mark Belanger to play SS.    I think teams now look at it as more of a plus/minus game.   Yeah, Jeter and Ripken are going to cost your some outs in the field but will they more than make up for it a the plate?    If so, they stay at SS. 

OK.  Those are still positions where it's not easy to find many great hitters.  It may be easier than it was 50 years ago, but there are still plenty of 1B and RFs who can hit like only a handful of middle infielders, and to a lesser extent, third basemen.  Back to my original argument.
7/28/2014 1:04 PM
MikeT23
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They are a good bit different offensively as far as power.    Ellsbury gets more XBH.  I think the Yanks felt he'd hit more homers at YS.    Defensively, they're the same guy.   Ellsbury was on the open market.  Gardner was not. 
7/28/2014 1:05 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
Because the Yankees overpaid him on the open market.
Probably true.  What do you think he should have been paid, relative to someone like Gardner?

They're pretty similar offensive players.  I'm trying to figure out why Ellsbury makes so much more.

FWIW, I think Gardner is overpaid as well.

I'd rate them equally.  Ellsbury with a slight offensive advantage, Gardner with the defensive advantage.  Offense and defense offset each other.

So you're also confused as to why Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner.  Fair enough.
I'm not confused about it at all.  I already explained why that is.  Open market FA versus non-open market FA.

Are you confused why salaries are different between FA's who go on the open market as opposed to those who don't?

Don't you play HBD?  This happens there all the time.

We're comparing this to HBD now?

Why is it that the lefty with the 85/85 range and glove makes 3 times as much in the open market as the same hitter with the 70/70 range/glove?
7/28/2014 1:06 PM
burnsy483
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And no, it's nothing like HBD.  There aren't players who make 5 year/$110M on the open market who choose to stay at home for 4 years/$32M in MLB.
7/28/2014 1:07 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:51:00 PM (view original):

But, again, that wasn't the point I was making.  I believe, back in the day, that teams were more "defense first" at a few positions.    They would take a Jeter or a Ripken, move them to 3B and find a Mark Belanger to play SS.    I think teams now look at it as more of a plus/minus game.   Yeah, Jeter and Ripken are going to cost your some outs in the field but will they more than make up for it a the plate?    If so, they stay at SS. 

OK.  Those are still positions where it's not easy to find many great hitters.  It may be easier than it was 50 years ago, but there are still plenty of 1B and RFs who can hit like only a handful of middle infielders, and to a lesser extent, third basemen.  Back to my original argument.
And my original argument was that there are no more "defensive" positions.   If a guy can hit and play a servicable "defensive position", he's not moved to 1B or RF.  He has more value at 2B/3B and allows a team to get a slug for 1B.
7/28/2014 1:07 PM
burnsy483
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Ripken was eventually moved, FWIW.  ARod was moved, and you've argued that he would have been moved eventually without the Yankee trade.  People move from CF to corner outfield all the time.

It is harder to find guys who can play 3B and also hit really well.  Makes Beltre more valuable.  People look at 3B as an offensive position, and it really isn't.  Not a ton of great hitters there, in the past, and currently, relative to other positions.  
7/28/2014 1:13 PM
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