HOF makes first rule change in 30 years. Topic

Yeah, but my Koufax comments had nothing to do with "abandoning" my Beltre argument.
7/30/2014 9:26 AM
No, it did not.   But you know what he was saying.   "Cut off your nose to spite your face" thing.
7/30/2014 9:41 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2014 9:02:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 7:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/29/2014 3:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 3:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 7/29/2014 3:11:00 PM (view original):
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.


Where is this written?
Two posts above yours.  The one that you quoted.
Sorry, we didn't realize that you established the rules for what qualifies a player for the Hall of Fame.  My understanding was that there were no explicit instructions for this, and it was at the discretion of each individual voter to determine what made a player worthy or unworthy.

Fortunately, most of them aren't stubborn enough that they'd rather say "maybe Sandy Koufax wasn't a Hall of Famer" than abandon their absurdly stupid original argument.

What argument have I abandoned?

My argument all along is the Beltre has had a very long but overall very average career.  He's having some peak years right now, and has compiled a lot of numbers (hits and home runs) through longevity,  But for the majority of his career he's been little more than a slightly above average player.  The purpose of the HOF is not to honor slightly above average players.

I think his point was that you said "a reasonable case could be made for Koufax as a non-HOFer."     He had a short career, with a limited number of peak seasons, but that's a losing argument. 

I don't think he's followed the same path as Beltre:
2 partial seasons
3-4 league average(more or less)
1 stinker(1958)
5 best pitcher in baseball

Which 5 seasons was Beltre the best hitter in baseball?   It's not the same argument.
That's not a requirement. Jeter has never once been the best hitter in baseball. I doubt he was ever the best shortstop.

Beltre has been dominant for the last 5 years (+2004) and above average for the rest of his career. He's clearly the best third baseman in baseball now.

The fact that he didn't have his dominant years during the same age-seasons that most players do doesn't exclude him from the Hall of Fame.
7/30/2014 10:25 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 8:00:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/29/2014 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, Mike, would you prefer to have Robinson or Beltre?

Keep in mind that, barring a collapse down the stretch, Beltre will have hit .300 more times in the past 3 years than Robinson did in his career.  And he hit 30+ homers more times last year than Brooks did in his career.  And Beltre has probably already amassed more defensive value at 3B to date than anyone else since Robinson.  I'm not saying he's as good a defender as Brooks was.  But he's very good.  And he actually provides some offensive value.  Brooks Robinson was basically an average hitter in all respects, a little more than median power, near the median hit rate for his time, and below the median walk rate, but nothing very far from par.  Even if you're not blown away by Beltre, I don't think you can reasonably call him an average hitter.  He's a legitimate middle of the order bat.
Another dumb argument, approaching BL level.

You're comparing the offensive stats of a guy who's playing in an offense-inflated era against a player who played in an offense-deflated era and saying "SEE!  See how much better the first guy is!".

Good job.

We can use OPS+ to see that Robinson was barely above average offensively compared to his peers. Beltre has been better offensively, even when adjusting for the higher scoring during his career.
7/30/2014 10:28 AM
115 to 104. 

Is 115 OPS+ your new minimum threshold for Hall of Fame worthy?

7/30/2014 10:50 AM
No. Why would you think that?
7/30/2014 11:12 AM
Because you're insisting that Beltre is an obvious HOFer in part because of his offensive prowess.  I see a career OPS+ of 115.  It follows that that's at least at or above your personal threshold.
7/30/2014 11:29 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 11:29:00 AM (view original):
Because you're insisting that Beltre is an obvious HOFer in part because of his offensive prowess.  I see a career OPS+ of 115.  It follows that that's at least at or above your personal threshold.
I don't think there's a set number. Robinson is a Hall of Famer at 104.

Beltre's weakness is his walk rate. That's why his OPS+ is so low. I brought that up in the very first post of the Beltre thread. I won't argue with you if you want to say that Beltre should have walked more often.
7/30/2014 11:33 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 11:29:00 AM (view original):
Because you're insisting that Beltre is an obvious HOFer in part because of his offensive prowess.  I see a career OPS+ of 115.  It follows that that's at least at or above your personal threshold.
WAR, ************!!!!!!!
7/30/2014 12:27 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Sez the King of bad faith arguments.

Fine, you don't like OPS+ . . . let's go to your precious WAR, ************!!!

Frank Baker had a career 62.8 WAR, ************!!! over 13 seasons (including partial seasons, one being VERY partial at 9 games).  That's an average of 4.8 WAR, ************!!! per season.

Adrian Beltre has a career 74.9 WAR, ************!!!! over 17 seasons (including two partial seasons).  That's an average of 4.4 WAR ************!!! per season.  That's 0.4 less WAR, ************!!! per season for Beltre, despite averaging playing 18 MORE games a season than Baker.

Edge . . . Baker.

Oh . . . and do you really want to hold it against Baker that he hit so few home runs in the ******* DEAD BALL ERA?  Are youi really that retarded?  (No, don't answer . . . that was a rhetorical question).
You must have forgotten this.     One can only assume that he criticized Frank "Home Run" Baker for his lack of home run production. 
7/30/2014 12:29 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/29/2014 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):
LOL.  Anyone ever say "Adrian Home Run Beltre"?   You know why?   He wasn't the most prominent HR hitter in his era.  Baker was.

That might be the most retarded thing BL has ever posted.
No one quoted me.

Good to know you're still reading my posts.
This.
7/30/2014 12:34 PM
He followed that up with saying that I shouldn't pro-rate WAR by season, that accumulated WAR over the length of a career was more important.

By that logic, a guy who averages a WAR or 2 over a 25 year career would slightly more valuable than a guy who averages a WAR of 4.9 over an 10 year career.

Because more is better.

7/30/2014 12:35 PM
Of course he did.  Because it fits his argument better.
7/30/2014 12:45 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
He followed that up with saying that I shouldn't pro-rate WAR by season, that accumulated WAR over the length of a career was more important.

By that logic, a guy who averages a WAR or 2 over a 25 year career would slightly more valuable than a guy who averages a WAR of 4.9 over an 10 year career.

Because more is better.

Um...
Because more is better.
With regards to baseball players and the positive stats they put up, when is more not better?
7/30/2014 12:46 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
He followed that up with saying that I shouldn't pro-rate WAR by season, that accumulated WAR over the length of a career was more important.

By that logic, a guy who averages a WAR or 2 over a 25 year career would slightly more valuable than a guy who averages a WAR of 4.9 over an 10 year career.

Because more is better.

Pro-rate Jeter's WAR on a per year basis.

Then compare that to Beltre's.

And Chase Utley's.
7/30/2014 12:58 PM
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HOF makes first rule change in 30 years. Topic

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