Nickel/Dime vs Pro/ I /NDBSets Topic

tlreese77
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If I run a Nickel or Dime against the Pro,I, or NDB sets, will my 3rd or 4th corner cover a TE or RB? Just curious how this works.

9/2/2014 8:05 PM
throdabonz
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I always preface these posts with "I believe the game works like this"...Your CBs do not cover RBs or TEs except in that when the score for coverage is figured vs. the score for pass success, the CBs play a role in who is in the area of coverage. The main assignment for RB or TE coverage falls strictly to LBs and SAFs and those postitions figure more prominently into success of pass to those particular positions. 

Hope that confused you as much as it does me tlreese.  

Please someone else explain this better.  
9/2/2014 10:28 PM
tlreese77
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I like to think I understand what you are saying. Thanks.
9/2/2014 11:27 PM
harriswb3
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Here are my thoughts and I'd LOVE to hear more thinking on this.  You definitely CANNOT look at this game via "individual matchups".  If you think of it as "groups" you will be better able to "understand"...or at least explain it to yourself.  Its unclear how many groups actually exist within the code, but here is my simplistic view of things:    

vs Pass:
A.  OL vs DL (including any blitzers or any personnel set to "line")
B.  Mid Range (LBs and S vs any offensive players in the "mid range"...this also depends on where you set your coverage depths, which is really the safeties)
C.  Deep/Long:  This is CBs and any Safeties set to Long coverage depth. 
D.  % pass/run figures into this somehow...in that if you are set to pass, your success vs the pass should be better than if set to run.....theoretically.  It is unclear how the defense "reacts" based on the actual play call by the offense.

Vs Run
A.  OL vs DL (including any blitzers or any personnel set to "line")
B.  Running Inside vs Outside:  Add in TE, WRs, or FB on offense and add in Safeties set to short and add in CBs for any outside runs)
C.  Running play that extends downfield:  Add in WRs (somehow based on downfield blocking) and add in Safeties set to long and certainly CBs)
D.  Again % pass/run setting figures in.

9/3/2014 9:13 AM
cjsweat
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I absolutely think you can and should look at this via individual matchups. If you run Nickel and blitz a linebacker, I'll pass to my RB's and TE's. Some lineup their best receiver in the 3 spot, to draw a matchup with the worst corner. That's just two simple examples. 
9/3/2014 10:50 AM
harriswb3
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Posted by cjsweat on 9/3/2014 10:50:00 AM (view original):
I absolutely think you can and should look at this via individual matchups. If you run Nickel and blitz a linebacker, I'll pass to my RB's and TE's. Some lineup their best receiver in the 3 spot, to draw a matchup with the worst corner. That's just two simple examples. 
I do not believe there is any evidence to support the idea that #3 WR is matched up to #3 CB.  I know people have success with this, but its not a one on one matchup....its a group on group matchup.  If you have evidence to support this, I'll be happy to see it.

You are making a different case regarding blitzing a LB then throwing to RBs or TE.  In that case you have depleted your LBs down to only 1.  That is also not a clear "one on one" matchup.

We may be agreeing in concept, but not on the exact words.  My point is this:  Your 90 SPD WR is not going to "beat" my 60 SPD CB....because there is no one on one matchup.
9/3/2014 6:30 PM
tigerpark135
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Posted by throdabonz on 9/2/2014 10:28:00 PM (view original):
I always preface these posts with "I believe the game works like this"...Your CBs do not cover RBs or TEs except in that when the score for coverage is figured vs. the score for pass success, the CBs play a role in who is in the area of coverage. The main assignment for RB or TE coverage falls strictly to LBs and SAFs and those postitions figure more prominently into success of pass to those particular positions. 

Hope that confused you as much as it does me tlreese.  

Please someone else explain this better.  
+1

Harrisb, If you set your rb's and te's to deep, cornerbacks do not cover them,.  Cornerbacks can make tackles misleading you to think they were the ones in coverage but they were not covering. The lb's and safteys do. 
9/4/2014 8:13 AM
tigerpark135
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So, if you run a 2 lb defense against a 4 rb/te combo and they pass every play you will get picked apart.
9/4/2014 8:14 AM
cjsweat
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Posted by harriswb3 on 9/3/2014 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cjsweat on 9/3/2014 10:50:00 AM (view original):
I absolutely think you can and should look at this via individual matchups. If you run Nickel and blitz a linebacker, I'll pass to my RB's and TE's. Some lineup their best receiver in the 3 spot, to draw a matchup with the worst corner. That's just two simple examples. 
I do not believe there is any evidence to support the idea that #3 WR is matched up to #3 CB.  I know people have success with this, but its not a one on one matchup....its a group on group matchup.  If you have evidence to support this, I'll be happy to see it.

You are making a different case regarding blitzing a LB then throwing to RBs or TE.  In that case you have depleted your LBs down to only 1.  That is also not a clear "one on one" matchup.

We may be agreeing in concept, but not on the exact words.  My point is this:  Your 90 SPD WR is not going to "beat" my 60 SPD CB....because there is no one on one matchup.
If you read Yatzr's game analysis, you can see which player is covering the player you're throwing to. When I throw to WR#3, I usually see CB#3 as the covering player. What I can do, and have found success in doing, is lineup my worst receiver in the WR#1 spot and he'll draw a matchup with CB#1. Doing that gives me a small advantage when my best receiver is lined up in the WR#3. 

For what it's worth, I don't think this gives me a large advantage or anything. There is some truth to this being group matchups, compared to individual matchups. However, I have found a small amount of value in having favorable individual matchups. 
9/4/2014 8:35 AM
pwiest
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I guess everyone's experience is different. I tried to do this exact one-on-one matchup before in the past and it didn't work. I plugged in my best receiver into that #3 spot hoping that it would match the defense's worst CB on him and it didn't work. The defense's best corner always ended up lining up with my best receiver. So, I stopped trying to exploit individual one-on-one match ups like that.  This was before the latest release, so maybe things have changed?
9/4/2014 9:24 AM
tigerpark135
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Posted by cjsweat on 9/4/2014 8:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by harriswb3 on 9/3/2014 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cjsweat on 9/3/2014 10:50:00 AM (view original):
I absolutely think you can and should look at this via individual matchups. If you run Nickel and blitz a linebacker, I'll pass to my RB's and TE's. Some lineup their best receiver in the 3 spot, to draw a matchup with the worst corner. That's just two simple examples. 
I do not believe there is any evidence to support the idea that #3 WR is matched up to #3 CB.  I know people have success with this, but its not a one on one matchup....its a group on group matchup.  If you have evidence to support this, I'll be happy to see it.

You are making a different case regarding blitzing a LB then throwing to RBs or TE.  In that case you have depleted your LBs down to only 1.  That is also not a clear "one on one" matchup.

We may be agreeing in concept, but not on the exact words.  My point is this:  Your 90 SPD WR is not going to "beat" my 60 SPD CB....because there is no one on one matchup.
If you read Yatzr's game analysis, you can see which player is covering the player you're throwing to. When I throw to WR#3, I usually see CB#3 as the covering player. What I can do, and have found success in doing, is lineup my worst receiver in the WR#1 spot and he'll draw a matchup with CB#1. Doing that gives me a small advantage when my best receiver is lined up in the WR#3. 

For what it's worth, I don't think this gives me a large advantage or anything. There is some truth to this being group matchups, compared to individual matchups. However, I have found a small amount of value in having favorable individual matchups. 
and I normally put my 3rd best cb at cb1   ;)
9/4/2014 9:25 AM
cjsweat
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Yes, some coaches make the change at CB and other's don't. Key is knowing which ones do and making adjustments. 
9/4/2014 9:28 AM
tlreese77
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Good discussion and some interesting points to think about.
9/4/2014 6:25 PM
harriswb3
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Well, I have tried the best WR at #3 and had no luck.  This was under 3.0..not 3.1  And I had (arguably) the best fleet of WRs in Wilkinson D3.  

I like this discussion though...because it keeps us all fresh and looking for new ways to move the ball, or defend.  I just picked up another team in order to experiment some more.  This new engine has much more complexity than 2.0 and finding the little nuances is a skill in itself.

I use the yatzr tool extensively, but I guess I need to do some more looking/analysis.

9/5/2014 7:52 AM
amorak
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Very interesting conversation, and I like getting the insight of experienced coaches on these issues. It does in the end seem to me that we just don't know a lot of the answers -- and do not have enough information to figure it out. (Maybe I'm wrong about this.)

I don't mind the not knowing everything from the start. But I wish we had a few more tools or hints from WiS/GD in order to figure some of this stuff out. Shouldn't that be the key to the game, and the point of it? Experimenting, learning, improving? Which I mean, sure, we're all doing. 

But based on this conversation, my own experiences, and the conversations in the positional-ratings threads, we seem not to know very much at all. For every successful owner who thinks one thing about how the engine works, another owner seems to think the exact opposite. And I guess I'm just not sure it's possible to figure anything out with any degree of certainty. 

Not complaining ... well, maybe a little ... but mostly just musing.

 

9/5/2014 9:12 AM
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