Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 2:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 2:14:00 PM (view original):
How about this guy?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

 

Yea, that's criminal.

IMO, the police in the Rice killing were justified because they believed Rice had a gun, and was aiming it at people. They believed him to be dangerous.

Criminal?   Not so much.    He was fired for being incompetent.  

Nonetheless, when dealing with cops, you have to let them know what you're doing while you're doing it if you'll be out of their view.   Cops don't like not being able to see what you're doing.

Yikes.

You know that cop was charged with a crime and could be sentenced up to 20 years sometime early next year, right?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 4:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 3:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 2:58:00 PM (view original):
When did the police tell Rice to put his hands in the air? They literally shot him within 2 seconds of their arrival. This shooting also makes no sense. Anyone can see that the way to handle this is to stay farther back and take more than 2 seconds to assess the situation. No one was being threatened.

One could argue that people in the park were being threatened by a crazy man with a gun.  If that's what the cops believed, I understand their reaction.

I'll disagree that driving up to Rice, rather than staying back, makes their situation criminal.  And generally, when cops are told "this person has a gun" they don't stay back to watch him for a bit.  I'd also argue that if they're 30 feet away, rather than 5 feet away, I doubt much changes. You think that distance will keep a cop from firing his gun if Rice reacts the exact same way?

Is there a situation where a cop makes a mistake, and it involves the death of someone innocent, where the cop could be innocent of criminal charges?

You could argue that. But there weren't any other people in the frame. That doesn't mean there weren't other people in the park, but the video shows Rice standing around or sitting on the bench for more than ten minutes. Anyone fearing for their life had ample opportunity to leave.

Generally, the protocol for dealing with a person with a gun is this:

"When approaching someone who's either holding a gun or indicating that they have one, police are trained to first take cover at a safe distance and create a barrier between themselves and the other person. This usually means ducking behind the police cruiser or a building. 

Next, officers should draw their weapons and command the suspect to drop their gun and get on the ground. The dialogue that happens between an officer and the suspect is what some experts call the most important aspect of police work."

I feel uncomfortable charging an officer with a crime for not being further away from the suspect so they had time to hide behind the car.  I don't blame the officer who shot him, given the circumstances he was presented with.

"If the suspect points a gun at someone, or reaches for a gun in a way that indicates they're going to shoot, police are allowed to fire."

And burns, I didn't answer a couple direct questions.

Yes, I think the distance absolutely makes a difference. At three feet, the fear that he is going to be shot is the first and, probably, only thing in that cops mind. I don't blame him for that fear, but it's not there (or at least it's reduced to the point that he can clearly assess the situation) at 30 feet away.

Yes, I do think it's possible for a cop to make a mistake, take someone's life, and not have it be a criminal act.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:10:00 PM (view original):
And ****, he just said "show me your license," so he went to do that. Maybe the cop should have moved quickly towards him to see what he was doing, maybe he could yell "come back, hands up", something different.  Again, he wasn't a threat, there was no reason to shoot him. Thinking he was was very wrong, and shooting him was criminal, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of cops shooting people.   

1.  There is the law
2.  There is the right way
3.  There is what you need to do

The law dictates that the cop can stop you and demand your license.
The right way is to sit your *** in your car with your hands on the wheel.  Not doing this is a bad idea.
What you need to do is make sure the cop is fully cognizant of what you're doing.


I assume you have crosswalks where the pedestrian has the right of way.    When you approach them do you just walk across or do you look before you cross?   If you look and a car is not stopping, do you walk on anyway?   You are responsible for your safety.   If you're in a situation where it's threatened, you have to do what you need to do to protect it. 

He's in a parking lot.  You're assuming he knew he was being pulled over; my initial impression, because he was getting out of the car, was that he was not aware. He gave the cop the long look after getting out of the car, like he was surprised to see him. I could be wrong, obviously.

Regardless, you're defending the cop shooting him, because this guy should know to stay in the car.  And I think it's unreasonable that this man NEEDED to tell the cop "I'm getting my license" after the cop asked him to see his license, without getting shot.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 4:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:10:00 PM (view original):
And ****, he just said "show me your license," so he went to do that. Maybe the cop should have moved quickly towards him to see what he was doing, maybe he could yell "come back, hands up", something different.  Again, he wasn't a threat, there was no reason to shoot him. Thinking he was was very wrong, and shooting him was criminal, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of cops shooting people.   

1.  There is the law
2.  There is the right way
3.  There is what you need to do

The law dictates that the cop can stop you and demand your license.
The right way is to sit your *** in your car with your hands on the wheel.  Not doing this is a bad idea.
What you need to do is make sure the cop is fully cognizant of what you're doing.


I assume you have crosswalks where the pedestrian has the right of way.    When you approach them do you just walk across or do you look before you cross?   If you look and a car is not stopping, do you walk on anyway?   You are responsible for your safety.   If you're in a situation where it's threatened, you have to do what you need to do to protect it. 

I can't believe you're defending the fired/on trial for charges that could result in 20 years of prison cop in this case. Jones was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

The cop asked him to get his license.
He reached for his license.
The cop shot him.
Cop gets fired and arrested, charged with felony assault and battery.

Seems like this is the one absolutely clear case we've discussed.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 4:24:00 PM (view original):
And burns, I didn't answer a couple direct questions.

Yes, I think the distance absolutely makes a difference. At three feet, the fear that he is going to be shot is the first and, probably, only thing in that cops mind. I don't blame him for that fear, but it's not there (or at least it's reduced to the point that he can clearly assess the situation) at 30 feet away.

Yes, I do think it's possible for a cop to make a mistake, take someone's life, and not have it be a criminal act.

It could be argued that from 30 feet away, it's harder to tell what's happening than from 3 feet away. If you want to argue that it's enough space and time to hide behind the car from there, and then you can assess the situation, ok. 

I would argue that this cop made a mistake in driving up too closely to the suspect, based on what you're showing me how cops are trained to deal with this situation. But I would argue that it's not criminal, it's a mistake that resulted in a child's death. Which is horrible. Remember that it's two different cops - one who drove, and one who shot him. And it's very possible that the cop still shoots him from 30 feet away.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:42:00 PM (view original):
He's in a parking lot.  You're assuming he knew he was being pulled over; my initial impression, because he was getting out of the car, was that he was not aware. He gave the cop the long look after getting out of the car, like he was surprised to see him. I could be wrong, obviously.

Regardless, you're defending the cop shooting him, because this guy should know to stay in the car.  And I think it's unreasonable that this man NEEDED to tell the cop "I'm getting my license" after the cop asked him to see his license, without getting shot.

As I said, I'm not a fan of cops shooting people. 

But, yeah, he needed to express his intent to the guy with the gun and the authority to shoot him. 

"Show me your license!"
A.  Duck into car
B.  "It's in the car.  I'm going to get it, OK?"

Yea...no, he didn't NEED to. You don't NEED to explain every thing you're doing, as you're doing it, because if you don't, you're at risk at getting shot.  That's insane talk.

If the cop was uncomfortable with this man's actions, he can say "sir, out of the car, hands up" without shooting him.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 4:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 4:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:10:00 PM (view original):
And ****, he just said "show me your license," so he went to do that. Maybe the cop should have moved quickly towards him to see what he was doing, maybe he could yell "come back, hands up", something different.  Again, he wasn't a threat, there was no reason to shoot him. Thinking he was was very wrong, and shooting him was criminal, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of cops shooting people.   

1.  There is the law
2.  There is the right way
3.  There is what you need to do

The law dictates that the cop can stop you and demand your license.
The right way is to sit your *** in your car with your hands on the wheel.  Not doing this is a bad idea.
What you need to do is make sure the cop is fully cognizant of what you're doing.


I assume you have crosswalks where the pedestrian has the right of way.    When you approach them do you just walk across or do you look before you cross?   If you look and a car is not stopping, do you walk on anyway?   You are responsible for your safety.   If you're in a situation where it's threatened, you have to do what you need to do to protect it. 

I can't believe you're defending the fired/on trial for charges that could result in 20 years of prison cop in this case. Jones was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

The cop asked him to get his license.
He reached for his license.
The cop shot him.
Cop gets fired and arrested, charged with felony assault and battery.

Seems like this is the one absolutely clear case we've discussed.

"He reached for his license"

To be fair, he didn't just calmly turn around and reach into his vehicle.  He turned quickly, and went quickly into his vehicle.  Sudden movements are a bad idea when confronted with an armed law enforcement officer.

Did his actions warrant being shot?  Probably not.  Could he have used a little better judgement in how he responded to the cop's request?  Probably so.

There's one common theme in all of these cases that have been discussed in these forums over the past couple of months.  People make poor decisions when faced with an armed law enforcement officer, and they get shot or tased.  You tend to focus on "they got shot".  I tend to focus on "poor decisions.

If better decisions are made by the victims, they don't become victims.
 

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 5:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 4:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 4:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:10:00 PM (view original):
And ****, he just said "show me your license," so he went to do that. Maybe the cop should have moved quickly towards him to see what he was doing, maybe he could yell "come back, hands up", something different.  Again, he wasn't a threat, there was no reason to shoot him. Thinking he was was very wrong, and shooting him was criminal, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of cops shooting people.   

1.  There is the law
2.  There is the right way
3.  There is what you need to do

The law dictates that the cop can stop you and demand your license.
The right way is to sit your *** in your car with your hands on the wheel.  Not doing this is a bad idea.
What you need to do is make sure the cop is fully cognizant of what you're doing.


I assume you have crosswalks where the pedestrian has the right of way.    When you approach them do you just walk across or do you look before you cross?   If you look and a car is not stopping, do you walk on anyway?   You are responsible for your safety.   If you're in a situation where it's threatened, you have to do what you need to do to protect it. 

I can't believe you're defending the fired/on trial for charges that could result in 20 years of prison cop in this case. Jones was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

The cop asked him to get his license.
He reached for his license.
The cop shot him.
Cop gets fired and arrested, charged with felony assault and battery.

Seems like this is the one absolutely clear case we've discussed.

"He reached for his license"

To be fair, he didn't just calmly turn around and reach into his vehicle.  He turned quickly, and went quickly into his vehicle.  Sudden movements are a bad idea when confronted with an armed law enforcement officer.

Did his actions warrant being shot?  Probably not.  Could he have used a little better judgement in how he responded to the cop's request?  Probably so.

There's one common theme in all of these cases that have been discussed in these forums over the past couple of months.  People make poor decisions when faced with an armed law enforcement officer, and they get shot or tased.  You tend to focus on "they got shot".  I tend to focus on "poor decisions.

If better decisions are made by the victims, they don't become victims.
 

Your criminal philosophy:

If she hadn't been wearing a short skirt and gotten drunk, she wouldn't have been raped.
If the family had just kept their windows shut and locked at night, they wouldn't have been murdered in their sleep.
If the wife had heated the turkey pot pie to the correct temperature, the husband wouldn't have beat her.

You're an idiot. 

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 5:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 4:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 4:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:10:00 PM (view original):
And ****, he just said "show me your license," so he went to do that. Maybe the cop should have moved quickly towards him to see what he was doing, maybe he could yell "come back, hands up", something different.  Again, he wasn't a threat, there was no reason to shoot him. Thinking he was was very wrong, and shooting him was criminal, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of cops shooting people.   

1.  There is the law
2.  There is the right way
3.  There is what you need to do

The law dictates that the cop can stop you and demand your license.
The right way is to sit your *** in your car with your hands on the wheel.  Not doing this is a bad idea.
What you need to do is make sure the cop is fully cognizant of what you're doing.


I assume you have crosswalks where the pedestrian has the right of way.    When you approach them do you just walk across or do you look before you cross?   If you look and a car is not stopping, do you walk on anyway?   You are responsible for your safety.   If you're in a situation where it's threatened, you have to do what you need to do to protect it. 

I can't believe you're defending the fired/on trial for charges that could result in 20 years of prison cop in this case. Jones was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

The cop asked him to get his license.
He reached for his license.
The cop shot him.
Cop gets fired and arrested, charged with felony assault and battery.

Seems like this is the one absolutely clear case we've discussed.

"He reached for his license"

To be fair, he didn't just calmly turn around and reach into his vehicle.  He turned quickly, and went quickly into his vehicle.  Sudden movements are a bad idea when confronted with an armed law enforcement officer.

Did his actions warrant being shot?  Probably not.  Could he have used a little better judgement in how he responded to the cop's request?  Probably so.

There's one common theme in all of these cases that have been discussed in these forums over the past couple of months.  People make poor decisions when faced with an armed law enforcement officer, and they get shot or tased.  You tend to focus on "they got shot".  I tend to focus on "poor decisions.

If better decisions are made by the victims, they don't become victims.
 

Holy crap. He moved too quickly to accommodate the cops request. Wow.

Good thing he didn't move slower or the cop would have justifiably killed him for ignoring the order.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 4:58:00 PM (view original):
Yea...no, he didn't NEED to. You don't NEED to explain every thing you're doing, as you're doing it, because if you don't, you're at risk at getting shot.  That's insane talk.

If the cop was uncomfortable with this man's actions, he can say "sir, out of the car, hands up" without shooting him.

I bet, had he said "It's in the car.  Can I get it?", he doesn't get shot.

Seems like a small task to avoid getting shot.

Again, you're counting on the guy with the gun and the authority to do the right thing.     I don't want to know if I'm dealing with a good cop, a bad cop or an incompetent cop.   I just want him to tell me why I'm detained and what I need to do to go on my way. 

Posted by stinenavy on 12/16/2014 6:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:00:00 PM (view original):
You encounter a person waving what appears to be a very real gun around, who has been reported to have been pointing it at people in an erratic and threatening way.

Are you supposed to ask "Excuse me son, but is that a real gun in your hand"?

If it's not your day, you could end up with a bullet between the eyes before you get to the word "but".

I don't even need to know but you're wasting your time arguing with BL on this.

Being a cop is a tough job.   They have to make quick decisions with virtually no information.   No one is going to say "That 12 y/o got what he deserved."    It seems that the liberals, like BL, want the cops to wait to act until shots are fired, punches are thrown, bodily harm is inflicted, etc, etc.

"Hands in the air", "Drop your weapon". Even movies start with that.

Naw this is real life, just shoot 'em.

Naw, let's just have cops getting killed because they're waiting to see if the other guy shoots them, punches them, runs them over with a car, etc, etc.

No need for the public to take any responsibility for their actions.    ******* cops.