Top D3 coach POLL VOTE AWAY!!! Topic

tarvolon
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Also, to milwood's point of "it's not all about titles," I know this would be a huuuuuuuge pain in the butt to track for everyone else, but I track these numbers for myself, so. . . my D3 resume

completed seasons: 89
NT berths: 70
2nd rounds: 61
Sweet Sixteens: 47
Elite Eights: 32
Final Fours: 18
championship games: 13
Titles: 8

NT rate: 79%
2nd round rate: 69%
Sweet Sixteen rate: 53%
Elite Eight rate: 36%
Final Four rate: 20%
Title game rate: 15%
Title rate: 9%

1st round record: 61-9 (87%)
2nd round record: 47-14 (77%)
Sweet Sixteen record: 32-15 (68%)
Elite Eight record: 18-14 (56%)
Final Four record: 13-5 (72%)
Title game record: 8-5 (62%)

I'm in nine worlds, so this probably includes more rebuild seasons that most coaches with a comparable number of seasons, but that really only affects the rate stats. The round-by-round stats should be pretty fairly comparable between most anyone, many worlds or few.

I'm really curious how it stacks up to the greats. Like I said earlier, I could see myself around #5, but I think the true elites have a better championship rate and a much better Final Four rate than I do.  
6/28/2015 6:08 PM
milwood
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Posted by tarvolon on 6/28/2015 5:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by milwood on 6/28/2015 5:51:00 PM (view original):
All great coaches with great resumes. I don't think championships tell the whole story. Someone mentioned that a coach that is competitive for two years and that doesn't make the post season for 2 seasons probably shouldn't be considered. I agree wit that. Staying with that same line of thinking, mfnmyers has dominant teams but he runs a gimmick. His teams routinely have ath and def ratings in the 70s, which is pretty amazing for DIII. However, on the flip side of that it is also not uncommon that the best ball handler and passer on his team is in the 20s or 30s. With all due respect because I used to hate playing him the short time I was in crum, his teams don't really know how to play basketball. They can't handle the ball, pass the ball, or even shoot the ball. They are just way more athletic and better defenders than his competition.


He is a great coach and great at how he wins but he falls just short of this list as an all around coach
yeah, playing Dickinson in Crum drove me crazy, because mfnmyers has figured out how to win in HD, but it's a method that absolutely should not work, if the game were well-balanced. So fair play for figuring out how to win, but it does give me a bias against putting him too high on the list. 
Absolutely, he did a great job figuring it out, but f I'm not mistaken most if not all his teams are set up this way
6/28/2015 6:23 PM
jsajsa
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I believe very strongly I win this by any definition. Yes, you can call that ego, but I have the resume behind it that goes well beyond championships. For the DIII level, no one here can match my combination of top level success and consistency, and as I pointed out on the other thread, I highly value consistency.

As for Tarv's numbers, that's very interesting stuff and thanks for organizing it. Yeah, I've been slacking on titles lately. It's true, my titles per team the last 10 seasons has been poor by my standards, but when you consider that for those seasons (3 teams = 30 seasons) I've made 17 final fours (57% rate) I'll happily accept that as a down period. As Milwood pointed out, titles hardly tell the whole story, which is why I wish they would add final fours and sweet sixteens to everyone's HD username page.

Also, as I pointed out, if you want to be discussed here that means there is no such thing as slacking. That's why Myers doesn't really belong here. His teams are tough 2 out of 4 seasons like clockwork and an easy blowout win the other two. That's why aejones doesn't belong here. 2 of his last 3 seasons in Naismith (which admittedly IS the toughest DIII world) he's been under .500 and the other was a 17-13 season. That's why I regretfully leave a guy I have a ton of respect for in xulapaul off this discussion. He is one of the 10 best DIII coaches in the game, but his UAA history holds him back. So I'll make a list based on who I feel deserves consideration.

1) jsajsa
2) pepwaves
3) dgravs
4/5) tarv/gallagh
6) brianxavier
7) jdno

6/28/2015 6:37 PM (edited)
tarvolon
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Yep, my "last ten seasons" final four rate is 38% (15 in 40 seasons). I think the comparison between that and jsajsa's shows how much a little NT luck at the right time can skew perceptions. I've had some bounces go my way in final four games, but he's been in the mix a lot more regularly. 

I agree that Final Fours would be a great addition to coaching resumes. 
6/28/2015 7:03 PM
zorzii
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You guys have to put Worldofnoah in there. You would not beat him easily, he'd be a pain to anyone playing in his Knight world. Go there, buy a team and beat him. Simple as that. He always is top...

And there is another factor to take into consideration and a reason why I really like Pep... Most team who are dominant are press... I think press is a bit OP in DIII.
6/28/2015 7:32 PM
carl3298
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great discussion.  I have to say that Naismith was and probably still is the strongest D3 world - certainly has one of the highest populations.  I tried it for a few seasons but just didn't have the interest to stick with 4 teams total so I gave that one up…. and I really didn't see me making a big dent for awhile so I lost patience.  The UAA was awesome in that world (probably still is).

I also wish they put further detail on resumes - I was killing it for years at Millsaps in Rupp but never winning the title.  I would love to see final fours, sweet 16s, etc. etc.  seems like it wouldn't be that hard to add that level of detail.

(to clarify, this is my alternate ID for brianxavier that I took over for Carl a few years ago)

6/28/2015 7:41 PM
jsajsa
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Bounces absolutely skew perceptions. In those last 10 seasons, if you want to talk about bad bounces... I just lost the Crum title game by fouling under 5 seconds with a 1 point lead, and some other coach on this list (we don't have to name names) beat me for the national title in overtime (AFTER HITTING THE GAME TYING HALF COURT/FULL COURT SHOT (forgot which one) TO SEND IT TO OVERTIME). Good thing this is a just a game meant to be fun :)


I put together my resume rates so Tarv isn't alone. I'll do all completed seasons first, then for a more accurate picture do my rates for teams that had all my own players on it (i.e. subtracting years 1-3 of each new team). Rounded to the nearest decimal...

All:
NT rate: 93.7%
2nd round rate: 85.6%
Sweet Sixteen rate: 74%
Elite Eight rate: 53.9%
Final Four rate: 41.4%
Title Game rate: 22.1%
Title rate: 11.5%

With all my own players:
NT rate: 100%
2nd round rate: 97.6%
Sweet Sixteen rate: 84.5%
Elite Eight rate: 61.9%
Final Four rate: 47.6%
Title Game rate: 23.8%
Title rate: 13.1%

I would love to see my #1 seed rate but that would be far too great a pain in the butt to figure out right now.


zorzii, I overlapped with noah in Naismith for 6 seasons before he left Wilmington, where he was pretty good but not really elite. Obviously he has grown a lot and is on a great run in Knight. But checking out his resume, he hasn't done enough yet to really warrant consideration. He is welcome back to Naismith any time he wants to play with all the big boys again. See if you can get him to the NCAC!
6/28/2015 7:50 PM
tarvolon
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the all own players is a good idea. If I do that, I get (rounded to the nearest percent)

NT rate: 95%
2nd round rate: 86%
Sweet Sixteen rate: 69%
Elite Eight rate: 47%
Final Four rate: 28%
Title game rate: 20%
Title rate: 13%

I actually had to take out a pair of Elite Eights when doing the only-my-own-players thing. I had a couple teams that made the elite eight with really junior-heavy starting lineups recruited by me and 1-2 seniors in the rotation that were not my guys. 

So yeah, like I said. . . I could definitely see myself in the argument for top five D3 coach, but anybody can see my resume can't match jsajsa's. 
6/28/2015 8:02 PM
dan2044
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jsa, you make the final 4 almost every other season you play?  THAT'S INSANE.  I can't even fathom that.  


6/28/2015 10:00 PM
ggallagh
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I voted for jsajsa despite having several losses to tarvolon in national championship games in the past year.. Tarv would get my #2 vote, then likely pepwaves. After that I think you are splitting hairs.

43 D3 seasons with own players
NT Rate: 95%
2nd round: 81%
S16: 63%
E8: 49%
F4: 37%
Title game: 21%
Titles: 9% 



6/28/2015 11:21 PM
bobmeyer
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Toss up between brianxavier and tarvolon. Slight edge to brianxavier, as I concur with phalla's observation that he is absolutely the most dominant D3 coach in the most dominant conference of all time - plus, like phalla, I seldom beat this SOB!

Tarvolon should also be considered. He wins and wins and wins and I believe has won tittles in all the worlds he has played in except Rupp. Extremely consistent.

Honorable mention to phalla. He came in like a hurricane into Rupp University, quickly won back to back titles, and moved on.
6/28/2015 11:28 PM
pepwaves
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Posted by bobmeyer on 6/28/2015 11:28:00 PM (view original):
Toss up between brianxavier and tarvolon. Slight edge to brianxavier, as I concur with phalla's observation that he is absolutely the most dominant D3 coach in the most dominant conference of all time - plus, like phalla, I seldom beat this SOB!

Tarvolon should also be considered. He wins and wins and wins and I believe has won tittles in all the worlds he has played in except Rupp. Extremely consistent.

Honorable mention to phalla. He came in like a hurricane into Rupp University, quickly won back to back titles, and moved on.

I just had to chime in after this comment, because this is the second time someone has made a lofty claim about Rupp D3 and University Rupp.  I know we are all biased about our own conferences, but c'mon man...."most dominant conference of all-time"?  Perhaps this was just hyperbole?

If you actually believe that statement, I encourage you to check the top 10 RPI lists.  Here's a link in case you have not:  whatif.cincinnati.com/forums/Posts.aspx

University Naismith shows up on that list 7 times.  University Rupp shows up zero times.  I've played in both Rupp D3 and Naismith D3 and while Rupp D3 used to be pretty good, it was never better than Naismith D3 and certainly is not now.  D3 is sadly a bit of a ghost world now since a bunch of coaches left for D2.  There are almost 60 more coaches in Naismith D3 than Rupp.  Wooden even has more coaches than Rupp D3. 

All that to say...I have a lot of respect for the accomplishments of both Brianxavier and Tarvolon.  Both deserve to be listed in this poll.

But, I had to make sure people don't forget that University Naismith is actually the best D3 conference in existence currently in by far the most competitive D3 world.  Some may even claim that University Naismith is the best conference at any level in any world.  And that's not hyperbole.

6/28/2015 11:55 PM
pepwaves
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Back to the OT... ;)

Even though I have more championships in Naismith than jsa (4 to 3...boo ya!), I voted jsajsa as the #1 coach.  He is right to toot his own horn.  He has been more consistently dominant across worlds than I have, and his consistency is truly impressive.  He currently holds the record for most consecutive Elite 8s.  How many is it jsa?

Here's what my list would look like:

1. jsajsa
2. dgravs (really impressed with him lately...wins 'ships quickly in basically every world he joins)
3. pepwaves
4. tarvolon
5. ggallagh

The rest of the coaches sort of bleed together for me, but jdno, brianxavier, and worldofnoah seem to be a cut above the rest.  If xulapaul and carlbuzz were able replicate their impressive success in other worlds in University Naismith, they would be much higher.  

(I'll post my NT rates later because I'm curious where they rank...)   

6/29/2015 12:13 AM
zorzii
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Yeah people should come and play in Naismith div III. Recruiting is not a walk in the park. You have to use your wits. There are more teams and more competitive divisions than anywhere else. My team Ohio Wesleyan is surrounded by other human coached teams. I bet it's the same for a lot of people.

Naismith University DIII... Best!
6/29/2015 8:02 AM
a_in_the_b
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Ok, ok. I'm coming, yah?
6/29/2015 8:09 AM
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