What are your thoughts on superclasses? Topic

The rules are the rules, and superclasses are totally legal. From a game-theory standpoint, they're probably the best ROI as well, although I'd have to study more to confirm. My gut says the money from winning/Final Four-ing on the 6-6-0-0 and 0-6-6-0 years and the occasional cash picked up in the 6-0-0-6 year more than covers for the dropped 0-0-6-6 season and, over a 4-year swing on average results in better than what all but maybe the dozen or so most elite 3-3-3-3 coaches would pick up on average in a comparable 4-year cycle. 

That said, I'm an ultra-competitive person and I play to win the game every season, not just 2 out of every 4, so I won't go there (although I am about to experiment with an 0-4-4-4 set up in a world, which arguably might punt one season...we'll see). But I certainly won't begrudge someone else for playing the game differently than I do. Anything within the rules is fair game. 
7/8/2015 7:06 PM
To milwood's point - $8k per year is indeed conservative for our D2 conference.  Now... At the risk of encouraging more superclass teams in power conferences, I think this needs to be spelled out and reiterated.

Let's say I just finished my season with 6 seniors and 6 freshmen.  Let's say I spend every penny recruiting my new freshmen (pretty much impossible, but we'll come back to that*) and now I have 6 freshmen a 6 sophs and zero dollars.

After that season I bank my $8k (again, conservative).  I roll over 100% of that.

The next season I have sophs and juniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $16k

The next season I have juniors and seniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $24k.

As my seniors graduate, I get $30k to add on to that $24k and, as tarvolon points out, I now have $54k to spend.  That's a lot of cash!

Let's say I spend $5k on FSS.  That's a pretty decent chunk at D2.  Let's say, also, that I spend $5k on each recruit I want to sign.  I won't have to, but we'll come back to that too.  Now I've recruited my 6 new freshmen and spent $35k.  I have $19k left over!  I carry over 25% of that and my new starting balance is $4,750.

SR/FR.  Season ends.  I have my $4750.  I bank my new $8k in postseason cash.  I get my $30k for my graduates and my budget to recruit 6 players is $42,750.  Pretty nice!  So let's say I do the same thing.  $5k FSS, $5k per recruit, my leftover is $7,750.  I carry over 25% of that, which is a little over $1,900.  See where this is going?

SO/FR - Start with $1900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
JR/SO - Start with $9,900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
SR/JR - Start with $17,900.  Get $8k.  New total - $25,900.  Get my $30k.  Now I'm not at $54k, I'm at $56k.  Start over.

It's actually a stronger effect than that, though.  Time for the bangin' asterisk!

*I won't have to spend anywhere NEAR $5k per recruit.  Nosiree.  Any coach worth a damn knows I have a giant, $50k plus bankroll.  Would you challenge me?  Would you battle me?  I wouldn't.  I'm gonna get my recruits for CHEAP for exactly that reason.  That increases every recruiting season's rollover.  By now, superclass teams in our conference can be recruiting with well over $60k, $70k, maybe $80k per season.  That's ludicrous.

That's where it falls apart as a gameplay issue.  If a superclass coach recruits in a dumb way and gets in crazy battles with D1 teams, he can blow that money.  If other D2 coaches engage in futile battles with that superclass coach it can cost everyone money, and the superclass coach will still get the recruit.

All that said, it's obviously still a legal strategy.  The rules allow it.  I maintain, however, that it's playing the game on easy mode, and makes it less fun for everyone else.

So what can be done?  Well, I'd propose a limited, or 0% carryover of postseason cash for teams with no graduating seniors.  That'd soften the blow while preserving the 6-per-class rule... if you feel that's worth preserving.  The way it is now, you'd be foolish to put a penny into, or battle for, any player considering a superclassed team.  Either the superclass coach is going to get the player for a penny, or for your entire budget plus one penny.
7/8/2015 7:37 PM (edited)
Yeah, the cash is probably worse than the superclass itself... It stinks.
7/8/2015 7:42 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 7:37:00 PM (view original):
To milwood's point - $8k per year is indeed conservative for our D2 conference.  Now... At the risk of encouraging more superclass teams in power conferences, I think this needs to be spelled out and reiterated.

Let's say I just finished my season with 6 seniors and 6 freshmen.  Let's say I spend every penny recruiting my new freshmen (pretty much impossible, but we'll come back to that*) and now I have 6 freshmen a 6 sophs and zero dollars.

After that season I bank my $8k (again, conservative).  I roll over 100% of that.

The next season I have sophs and juniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $16k

The next season I have juniors and seniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $24k.

As my seniors graduate, I get $30k to add on to that $24k and, as tarvolon points out, I now have $54k to spend.  That's a lot of cash!

Let's say I spend $5k on FSS.  That's a pretty decent chunk at D2.  Let's say, also, that I spend $5k on each recruit I want to sign.  I won't have to, but we'll come back to that too.  Now I've recruited my 6 new freshmen and spent $35k.  I have $19k left over!  I carry over 25% of that and my new starting balance is $4,750.

SR/FR.  Season ends.  I have my $4750.  I bank my new $8k in postseason cash.  I get my $30k for my graduates and my budget to recruit 6 players is $42,750.  Pretty nice!  So let's say I do the same thing.  $5k FSS, $5k per recruit, my leftover is $7,750.  I carry over 25% of that, which is a little over $1,900.  See where this is going?

SO/FR - Start with $1900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
JR/SO - Start with $9,900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
SR/JR - Start with $17,900.  Get $8k.  New total - $25,900.  Get my $30k.  Now I'm not at $54k, I'm at $56k.  Start over.

It's actually a stronger effect than that, though.  Time for the bangin' asterisk!

*I won't have to spend anywhere NEAR $5k per recruit.  Nosiree.  Any coach worth a damn knows I have a giant, $50k plus bankroll.  Would you challenge me?  Would you battle me?  I wouldn't.  I'm gonna get my recruits for CHEAP for exactly that reason.  That increases every recruiting season's rollover.  By now, superclass teams in our conference can be recruiting with well over $60k, $70k, maybe $80k per season.  That's ludicrous.

That's where it falls apart as a gameplay issue.  If a superclass coach recruits in a dumb way and gets in crazy battles with D1 teams, he can blow that money.  If other D2 coaches engage in futile battles with that superclass coach it can cost everyone money, and the superclass coach will still get the recruit.

All that said, it's obviously still a legal strategy.  The rules allow it.  I maintain, however, that it's playing the game on easy mode, and makes it less fun for everyone else.

So what can be done?  Well, I'd propose a limited, or 0% carryover of postseason cash for teams with no graduating seniors.  That'd soften the blow while preserving the 6-per-class rule... if you feel that's worth preserving.  The way it is now, you'd be foolish to put a penny into, or battle for, any player considering a superclassed team.  Either the superclass coach is going to get the player for a penny, or for your entire budget plus one penny.
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think.

7/8/2015 8:08 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 7:37:00 PM (view original):
To milwood's point - $8k per year is indeed conservative for our D2 conference.  Now... At the risk of encouraging more superclass teams in power conferences, I think this needs to be spelled out and reiterated.

Let's say I just finished my season with 6 seniors and 6 freshmen.  Let's say I spend every penny recruiting my new freshmen (pretty much impossible, but we'll come back to that*) and now I have 6 freshmen a 6 sophs and zero dollars.

After that season I bank my $8k (again, conservative).  I roll over 100% of that.

The next season I have sophs and juniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $16k

The next season I have juniors and seniors.  I get another $8k and roll over 100% of that.  Now I have $24k.

As my seniors graduate, I get $30k to add on to that $24k and, as tarvolon points out, I now have $54k to spend.  That's a lot of cash!

Let's say I spend $5k on FSS.  That's a pretty decent chunk at D2.  Let's say, also, that I spend $5k on each recruit I want to sign.  I won't have to, but we'll come back to that too.  Now I've recruited my 6 new freshmen and spent $35k.  I have $19k left over!  I carry over 25% of that and my new starting balance is $4,750.

SR/FR.  Season ends.  I have my $4750.  I bank my new $8k in postseason cash.  I get my $30k for my graduates and my budget to recruit 6 players is $42,750.  Pretty nice!  So let's say I do the same thing.  $5k FSS, $5k per recruit, my leftover is $7,750.  I carry over 25% of that, which is a little over $1,900.  See where this is going?

SO/FR - Start with $1900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
JR/SO - Start with $9,900.  Get $8k.  Spend zero.
SR/JR - Start with $17,900.  Get $8k.  New total - $25,900.  Get my $30k.  Now I'm not at $54k, I'm at $56k.  Start over.

It's actually a stronger effect than that, though.  Time for the bangin' asterisk!

*I won't have to spend anywhere NEAR $5k per recruit.  Nosiree.  Any coach worth a damn knows I have a giant, $50k plus bankroll.  Would you challenge me?  Would you battle me?  I wouldn't.  I'm gonna get my recruits for CHEAP for exactly that reason.  That increases every recruiting season's rollover.  By now, superclass teams in our conference can be recruiting with well over $60k, $70k, maybe $80k per season.  That's ludicrous.

That's where it falls apart as a gameplay issue.  If a superclass coach recruits in a dumb way and gets in crazy battles with D1 teams, he can blow that money.  If other D2 coaches engage in futile battles with that superclass coach it can cost everyone money, and the superclass coach will still get the recruit.

All that said, it's obviously still a legal strategy.  The rules allow it.  I maintain, however, that it's playing the game on easy mode, and makes it less fun for everyone else.

So what can be done?  Well, I'd propose a limited, or 0% carryover of postseason cash for teams with no graduating seniors.  That'd soften the blow while preserving the 6-per-class rule... if you feel that's worth preserving.  The way it is now, you'd be foolish to put a penny into, or battle for, any player considering a superclassed team.  Either the superclass coach is going to get the player for a penny, or for your entire budget plus one penny.
Wait.....teams with no graduating seniors roll over 100% recruiting money, not 25%?
7/8/2015 8:29 PM
No, 100% of postseason cash.
7/8/2015 8:35 PM
Yes, presumably because they were unable to benefit from that bonus money the season it was earned

ETA: yes, 100% of the postseason money - that's what I meant

(edited again, coz its basically the same thing, isnt it, since no scholly money is earned?)
7/8/2015 8:36 PM
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think. 
I'm in a D2 conference with a couple of these teams.  Humans aren't picking recruits off these guys.  And yes, I'm assuming we have a near-full conference and get $8k every season.  That's because that's exactly the case in the conference I'm in.  And believe me, we usually get over $9k.  Each.
7/8/2015 8:38 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 8:39:00 PM (view original):
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think. 
I'm in a D2 conference with a couple of these teams.  Humans aren't picking recruits off these guys.  And yes, I'm assuming we have a near-full conference and get $8k every season.  That's because that's exactly the case in the conference I'm in.  And believe me, we usually get over $9k.  Each.
Low d1 teams will come on your boys also when you need 6. With that a+ prestige getting the cream of the crop is still not easy. I have "that" team in Phelan and it really is not that easy, ask jwinner. He owns me!
7/8/2015 8:53 PM
A few years back in the prime of the Allen-Gulf South we'd often take $160-170k per season in postseason cash.  We had one coach that had no seniors, carried over the postseason cash to the following season.   With only three openings the next season, had about $43k for recruiting.

At one time with six teams with A+ prestige in the conference, it wasn't uncommon to see a couple D1 human coaches beat out for recruits by one of our D2 teams.

7/8/2015 9:32 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 8:35:00 PM (view original):
No, 100% of postseason cash.
Well that's f*cking bogus.
7/8/2015 10:20 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 8:39:00 PM (view original):
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think. 
I'm in a D2 conference with a couple of these teams.  Humans aren't picking recruits off these guys.  And yes, I'm assuming we have a near-full conference and get $8k every season.  That's because that's exactly the case in the conference I'm in.  And believe me, we usually get over $9k.  Each.
Again conservative. We have 4 superclass teams in our conference.

It's true that you don't automatically have a good team but you get every advantage possible.

And besides the money, the vast majority of these teams run FCP, which also is not a problem, but you have a FCP team with 12 players with very good to great IQs...... Nothing wrong with it but I would agree with llamanunts; its playing the game on easy mode.

7/8/2015 11:32 PM
Posted by garmansouth on 7/8/2015 8:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 8:39:00 PM (view original):
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think. 
I'm in a D2 conference with a couple of these teams.  Humans aren't picking recruits off these guys.  And yes, I'm assuming we have a near-full conference and get $8k every season.  That's because that's exactly the case in the conference I'm in.  And believe me, we usually get over $9k.  Each.
Low d1 teams will come on your boys also when you need 6. With that a+ prestige getting the cream of the crop is still not easy. I have "that" team in Phelan and it really is not that easy, ask jwinner. He owns me!
Doesn't matter if a D1 team comes on my boys.  If I can get that boy and it's worth it, I'm still all up in that.  If not, I come on your number one boy and just take him.  You can't get him back.  I'm coming on him now and you don't have the juice to outdo me.  The cream of the crop is all mine.

Thank you for the opportunity to compose this reply.  It's been a delight and I am forever in your debt.
7/8/2015 11:39 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 11:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by garmansouth on 7/8/2015 8:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 7/8/2015 8:39:00 PM (view original):
I don't think you can build a team like that in a "power conference" ! Human coaches will recognize what's going on pick the guys off. You are also assuming you will have a full conference for that whole span and get 8k every season in recruiting. I jumped on one of daveredden's teams and it's not as easy as you think. 
I'm in a D2 conference with a couple of these teams.  Humans aren't picking recruits off these guys.  And yes, I'm assuming we have a near-full conference and get $8k every season.  That's because that's exactly the case in the conference I'm in.  And believe me, we usually get over $9k.  Each.
Low d1 teams will come on your boys also when you need 6. With that a+ prestige getting the cream of the crop is still not easy. I have "that" team in Phelan and it really is not that easy, ask jwinner. He owns me!
Doesn't matter if a D1 team comes on my boys.  If I can get that boy and it's worth it, I'm still all up in that.  If not, I come on your number one boy and just take him.  You can't get him back.  I'm coming on him now and you don't have the juice to outdo me.  The cream of the crop is all mine.

Thank you for the opportunity to compose this reply.  It's been a delight and I am forever in your debt.
Close it down, it's all over. Everything on the message boards is downhill from here. We have officially jumped the shark.
7/9/2015 12:24 AM
well, i never tried the 6-6-0-0, but it seems fairly similar to the 12-0 to me in terms of effectiveness. the 12-0 was so easy it was a joke. i tried it once, i took over a badly recruited super class team, and won the title with the seniors anyway. that was my first title, i had 0 before that, so its not like i was already a master at that point. i recruited my one and only superclass following that title, and obviously it was a way more talented team. we lost in the title game as juniors, huge favorites in that title game, and then won it all as seniors. overall, it was absurdly easy, and the prospect of repeating that process was no fun at all (although it was interesting to do once just to prove to myself it was as easy as i thought). i never attempted again, but i'm sure if i did, it would have continued in similar fashion. note i was in an (at least) half empty conference, there was none of this crazy rolling up your bonus monies into an insane horde stuff!

so, my feeling on the 6-6-0-0 would have to be along those lines. its fine for new coaches to try to learn and for people to try just for fun. but long term, its pretty lame, and even though i do feel you should generally do what is allowed within the rules to dominate, that is just too cheesy, too big an advantage. you get to recruit with an A+ and pay no downside for the down years, simply because its just the way it goes in d2/d3. if you want to superclass in d1, fine. recruiting is competitive and you will pay for those down years. d2/d3 superclass titles absolutely do not count the way d2/d3 titles do. at best, half, probably less. im not saying there is NO challenge, but come on, its clearly not even close to the same level of challenge. you could never make the HD hall of fame on sheer superclass titles, even if you won 50, you wouldn't even be a consideration for the top 25, at least not in my book.

edit: the only thing ill say to redeem superclasses slightly, is that with potential, seniors are less of an advantage, and potential and the increased importance of local recruiting, do make superclassing today less overwhelming. i think 6-6 vs 12-0 is not really a meaningful difference, but those first two things are. however, its also clear you could perfect superclassing far beyond what i could as a rookie with no championships yet, with things like bonus money rollover, uptempo fb/pr, etc. all in all, for fun, to learn, go ahead - but anyone remotely aspiring to be one of the top coaches even in that single division of that single world, would do well to avoid superclassing. i dont go to the point of saying you are a dick if you super class, to each their own, but don't expect any serious respect for your accomplishments, either.

7/9/2015 1:07 AM (edited)
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