Posted by silentpadna on 8/24/2015 7:12:00 PM (view original):
Well, there's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try to keep it short.

You kept it too short....so short in fact that you don't make much sense.

I think it's pretty clear that PP isn't profiting off of the tissue donations. Unless you think the black market rate for fetal organs is $30-100.

Please tell us how it is "pretty clear" that they are not profiting.  I've been around business as a profit venture for a very long time.  Not sure how you can draw that conclusion.  Is it based on what they say?   I don't know what the black market rate is for the harvested organs of people are, but there would be zero motivation to do so if all it was for is to cover the cost of harvesting them alone.

I don't think anyone is unclear about what abortion is. Ending a pregnancy ends the life of the fetus. I think you're assuming that pro-choice people are pro-choice out of ignorance.

Not all of them are, but listen to the various arguments.  Go to NARAL and read some of their positions on life.  I'd link you, but my virus protector helped me avoid a little something.  I have personally talked one on one to at least 50 to pro-choice people and not one single one of them is willing to acknowledge that abortion results in the death of a living organism or even a human one.

I think the justification for abortion is this, women have the legal right to control their own medical decisions, including if and when they want to have a baby. The life of the fetus is secondary to the life of the mother.

We agree on this....sort of.  What the fetus is matters.  Do women have the right to control their own medical decisions?  Of course.  Abortion doesn't does not qualify as their own decision - there is another human involved.  Do woman control if and when they want to have a baby?  Yes.  There is a specific act that causes pregnancy to occur.  It's how we're made.  When the decision is made to engage in the act, there is a potential consequence.  Killing the consequence is morally repugnant.  Is the life of the fetus secondary to the life of the mother?  You won't get much argument from me on that.  You might also be surprised at the number of women who when given the actual choice of their life versus their baby's, they'll choose the baby's life to be saved.  In a situation where carrying the pregnancy to term results in the death of both, certainly you save the mother if you can.  I have no issue with that.

But, like I said in my first post, no one's mind is being changed by anything you or I type. You have absolutely no way of knowing this.  Or by the videos. Or this.  Nothing on those videos is surprising or illegal.  It's not surprising to you or me, but it is hugely surprising to those who've not been informed about what really happens during abortions.  Do you honestly think it's legal to engage in trafficking of human organs from dead babies?

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/25/2015 9:22:00 AM (view original):

Posted by silentpadna on 8/24/2015 7:12:00 PM (view original):
Well, there's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try to keep it short.

You kept it too short....so short in fact that you don't make much sense.

I think it's pretty clear that PP isn't profiting off of the tissue donations. Unless you think the black market rate for fetal organs is $30-100.

Please tell us how it is "pretty clear" that they are not profiting.  I've been around business as a profit venture for a very long time.  Not sure how you can draw that conclusion.  Is it based on what they say?   I don't know what the black market rate is for the harvested organs of people are, but there would be zero motivation to do so if all it was for is to cover the cost of harvesting them alone.

I don't think anyone is unclear about what abortion is. Ending a pregnancy ends the life of the fetus. I think you're assuming that pro-choice people are pro-choice out of ignorance.

Not all of them are, but listen to the various arguments.  Go to NARAL and read some of their positions on life.  I'd link you, but my virus protector helped me avoid a little something.  I have personally talked one on one to at least 50 to pro-choice people and not one single one of them is willing to acknowledge that abortion results in the death of a living organism or even a human one.

I think the justification for abortion is this, women have the legal right to control their own medical decisions, including if and when they want to have a baby. The life of the fetus is secondary to the life of the mother.

We agree on this....sort of.  What the fetus is matters.  Do women have the right to control their own medical decisions?  Of course.  Abortion doesn't does not qualify as their own decision - there is another human involved.  Do woman control if and when they want to have a baby?  Yes.  There is a specific act that causes pregnancy to occur.  It's how we're made.  When the decision is made to engage in the act, there is a potential consequence.  Killing the consequence is morally repugnant.  Is the life of the fetus secondary to the life of the mother?  You won't get much argument from me on that.  You might also be surprised at the number of women who when given the actual choice of their life versus their baby's, they'll choose the baby's life to be saved.  In a situation where carrying the pregnancy to term results in the death of both, certainly you save the mother if you can.  I have no issue with that.

But, like I said in my first post, no one's mind is being changed by anything you or I type. You have absolutely no way of knowing this.  Or by the videos. Or this.  Nothing on those videos is surprising or illegal.  It's not surprising to you or me, but it is hugely surprising to those who've not been informed about what really happens during abortions.  Do you honestly think it's legal to engage in trafficking of human organs from dead babies?

"I have personally talked one on one to at least 50 to pro-choice people and not one single one of them is willing to acknowledge that abortion results in the death of a living organism or even a human one."

While you are not addressing me one on one or personally, I'm pro-choice and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that abortion results in the death of a living organism.   

The discussion you and I would have is when human life begins.  

To answer your question half-assedly, I did plenty of research when forming a "final" opinion.   The sources I used, many years ago, gave me the idea of 8-9 weeks.  Looking at the source I just posted, I'd be more inclined to say 10 weeks(embryo to fetus stage).    Nonetheless, I'd still be pretty comfortable will legal abortions before the 9th week of pregnancy. 

To answer your question directly, I think you're playing with words to get the final result you want.   If it's an embryo produced by a human, it's naturally a human embryo.  To me, that doesn't constitute human life.   By your definition, sperm meets eggs and human life has begun.   That doesn't work for me so it has to be some point beyond that.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/25/2015 9:37:00 AM (view original):

To answer your question half-assedly, I did plenty of research when forming a "final" opinion.   The sources I used, many years ago, gave me the idea of 8-9 weeks.  Looking at the source I just posted, I'd be more inclined to say 10 weeks(embryo to fetus stage).    Nonetheless, I'd still be pretty comfortable will legal abortions before the 9th week of pregnancy. 

To answer your question directly, I think you're playing with words to get the final result you want.   If it's an embryo produced by a human, it's naturally a human embryo.  To me, that doesn't constitute human life.   By your definition, sperm meets eggs and human life has begun.   That doesn't work for me so it has to be some point beyond that.

Week 1 - 2

• The first week of pregnancy starts with the first day of a woman's menstrual period. She is not yet pregnant.
• During the end of the second week, an egg is released from an ovary. This is when you are most likely to conceive if you have unprotected intercourse.

Week 3

• During intercourse, sperm enter the vagina after the man ejaculates. The strongest sperm will travel through the cervix (the opening of the womb, or uterus), and into the Fallopian tubes.
• A single sperm and the mother's egg cell meet in the Fallopian tube. When the single sperm enters the egg, conception occurs. The combined sperm and egg is called a zygote.
• The zygote contains all of the genetic information (DNA) needed to become a baby. Half the DNA comes from the mother's egg and half from the father's sperm.
• The zygote spends the next few days traveling down the Fallopian tube. During this time, it divides to form a ball of cells called a blastocyst.
• A blastocyst is made up of an inner group of cells with an outer shell.
• The inner group of cells will become the embryo. The embryo is what will develop into your baby.
• The outer group of cells will become structures, called membranes, which nourish and protect the embryo.

Week 4

• Once the blastocyst reaches the uterus, it buries itself in the uterine wall.
• At this point in the mother's menstrual cycle, the lining of the uterus is thick with blood and ready to support a baby.
• The blastocyst sticks tightly to the wall of the uterus and receives nourishment from the mother's blood.
   

Week 5

• Week 5 is the start of the "embryonic period." This is when all the baby's major systems and structures develop.
• The embryo's cells multiply and start to take on specific functions. This is called differentiation.
• Blood cells, kidney cells, and nerve cells all develop.
• The embryo grows rapidly, and the baby's external features begin to form.
• Your baby's brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop.
• Baby's gastrointestinal tract starts to form.
• It's during this time in the first trimester that the baby is most at risk for damage from things that may cause birth defects. This includes certain medications, illegal drug use, heavy alcohol use, infections such as rubella, and other factors.

Weeks 6 - 7

• Arm and leg buds start to grow.
• Your baby's brain forms into five different areas. Some cranial nerves are visible.
• Eyes and ears begin to form.
• Tissue grows that will become your baby's spine and other bones.
• Baby's heart continues to grow and now beats at a regular rhythm.
• Blood pumps through the main vessels.

Week 8

• Baby's arms and legs have grown longer.
• Hands and feet begin to form and look like little paddles.
• Your baby's brain continues to grow.
• The lungs start to form.

Week 9

• Nipples and hair follicles form.
• Arms grow and elbows develop.
• Baby's toes can be seen.
• All baby's essential organs have begun to grow.

Week 10

• Your baby's eyelids are more developed and begin to close.
• The outer ears begin to take shape.
• Baby's facial features become more distinct.
• The intestines rotate.
• At the end of the 10th week of pregnancy, your baby is no longer an embryo. It is now a fetus, the stage of development up until birth.

Posted by silentpadna on 8/25/2015 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/25/2015 9:37:00 AM (view original):

To answer your question half-assedly, I did plenty of research when forming a "final" opinion.   The sources I used, many years ago, gave me the idea of 8-9 weeks.  Looking at the source I just posted, I'd be more inclined to say 10 weeks(embryo to fetus stage).    Nonetheless, I'd still be pretty comfortable will legal abortions before the 9th week of pregnancy. 

To answer your question directly, I think you're playing with words to get the final result you want.   If it's an embryo produced by a human, it's naturally a human embryo.  To me, that doesn't constitute human life.   By your definition, sperm meets eggs and human life has begun.   That doesn't work for me so it has to be some point beyond that.

I actually think your position is about as reasonable as it gets coming from the other side of the issue.  I'm not really playing with words as I do think the words actually matter.  My result isn't the result "I want" - it's where the facts as I know them take me.  I can't use your link presently (maybe later), so I don't know where that would take me. 

The issue of when human life begins is the ultimate premise for me - that's true.  In terms of biological events, there is none that changes it from one kind of living being to another after conception.  The only thing that happens biologically is growth and development - which is the same that happens biologically outside of the womb.  If I was to give any sort of benefit of the doubt to anyone, it has to be on the side of living.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2015 2:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by silentpadna on 8/25/2015 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/25/2015 9:37:00 AM (view original):

To answer your question half-assedly, I did plenty of research when forming a "final" opinion.   The sources I used, many years ago, gave me the idea of 8-9 weeks.  Looking at the source I just posted, I'd be more inclined to say 10 weeks(embryo to fetus stage).    Nonetheless, I'd still be pretty comfortable will legal abortions before the 9th week of pregnancy. 

To answer your question directly, I think you're playing with words to get the final result you want.   If it's an embryo produced by a human, it's naturally a human embryo.  To me, that doesn't constitute human life.   By your definition, sperm meets eggs and human life has begun.   That doesn't work for me so it has to be some point beyond that.

I actually think your position is about as reasonable as it gets coming from the other side of the issue.  I'm not really playing with words as I do think the words actually matter.  My result isn't the result "I want" - it's where the facts as I know them take me.  I can't use your link presently (maybe later), so I don't know where that would take me. 

The issue of when human life begins is the ultimate premise for me - that's true.  In terms of biological events, there is none that changes it from one kind of living being to another after conception.  The only thing that happens biologically is growth and development - which is the same that happens biologically outside of the womb.  If I was to give any sort of benefit of the doubt to anyone, it has to be on the side of living.

The only thing that happens biologically is growth and development - which is the same that happens biologically outside of the womb.  If I was to give any sort of benefit of the doubt to anyone, it has to be on the side of living.

But it is different. An unimplanted, fertilized egg certainly isn't a person. When it does becomes a person, and therefore deserving of rights and protections under the law, is debatable.