Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2015 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 11/22/2015 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by a_in_the_b on 11/21/2015 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Except with the two recruiting periods you would be able to bring in some of your own guys.  THe way I remember reading the split, one would be before new coaches, the other after.

ah yes excited to get the leftovers

Except there will be some guys who don't sign early (by design), so there will be players in the 2nd period who are good. In fact, if there are coaches who always fill their spots in the early period, you might get some good deals then.

sounds like you're talking a toddler into trying brussel sprouts.....when no one knows how the new engine will play out...but we've seen their past changes.<br />
if anyone has been around long enough to experience the 'slight' changes made in the past - you can't honestly be expecting a positive experience - it's gonna be ugly, with this many changes...and as for their beta world to 'learn' and 'test the engine'.....you'll be lucky to get 4 seasons - and i'd be surprised if they don't speed the seasons up to finish their testing in 1, maybe 2 months.<br />
<br />

Posted by crazyivan on 11/22/2015 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/22/2015 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 11/22/2015 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by a_in_the_b on 11/21/2015 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Except with the two recruiting periods you would be able to bring in some of your own guys.  THe way I remember reading the split, one would be before new coaches, the other after.

ah yes excited to get the leftovers

Except there will be some guys who don't sign early (by design), so there will be players in the 2nd period who are good. In fact, if there are coaches who always fill their spots in the early period, you might get some good deals then.

sounds like you're talking a toddler into trying brussel sprouts.....when no one knows how the new engine will play out...but we've seen their past changes.<br />
if anyone has been around long enough to experience the 'slight' changes made in the past - you can't honestly be expecting a positive experience - it's gonna be ugly, with this many changes...and as for their beta world to 'learn' and 'test the engine'.....you'll be lucky to get 4 seasons - and i'd be surprised if they don't speed the seasons up to finish their testing in 1, maybe 2 months.<br />
<br />

Sure, it will take some relearning and there will be some issues.  But it seems to be that they are trying to make recruiting more realistic.  I think recruiting the way it is now is a joke.  If you get the most money, you can get the best players.  Teams like Kentucky or Kansas can not really recruit in California or Florida if the local teams want a guy, etc.  Also, no one (except another A+ team, sometimes) goes after any of the A+ guys recruits because they can't really win.  That means the A+ guys spend 10K on the best players in the game .. and they have 100K to spend on their backups.  And that 100K is an ungodly amount of campus visits, etc.

I would greatly value a system where the teams have to actually put a significant amount of effort into getting the best players and there are a limited amount of campus visits, etc.  The best teams can still get the best players .. but it costs them a fair amount and they have to make choices because a player can only do 5 CV's etc.

Sure, they can totally screw it up, or they can make the game, IMHO, better .. based on the goals they are putting out.  I think these goals .. some limits on consecutive time at one school (how can the same person be there for 80 seasons), and fix the job firing can all be good for the game.

Now, obviously if they don't program it correctly, and nothing works then no update is a good update.

ok, let's say they fix elite d1 - how much time/effort are they going to spend fixing d2/d3? because the changes they are describing will make d2/d3 less than desirable. if i can't pull down d1 players and can't recruit more than 500 miles from campus (no internationals) - how is that a good thing?
there are over a dozen d2 teams in florida (+ PR) - there aren't that many d2 players within 500 miles of south florida for every d2 team to sign...not to mention georgia and alabama schools.
if they don't address recruit generation - they are wasting everyone's time.

Posted by crazyivan on 11/23/2015 1:30:00 PM (view original):
ok, let's say they fix elite d1 - how much time/effort are they going to spend fixing d2/d3? because the changes they are describing will make d2/d3 less than desirable. if i can't pull down d1 players and can't recruit more than 500 miles from campus (no internationals) - how is that a good thing?
there are over a dozen d2 teams in florida (+ PR) - there aren't that many d2 players within 500 miles of south florida for every d2 team to sign...not to mention georgia and alabama schools.
if they don't address recruit generation - they are wasting everyone's time.

1.  No one can pull down Div-1 players ... so everyone is on equal footing.  The teams, in comparison, would still be the same relative to each other.  You just don't have to know the secret handshake to get someone to consider you.  You start out with everyone who is going to consider you already in that mode.  You still have to find the best players.

2.  You can SIGN anyone at any distance for the same effort.  You get X campus visits to give out and X home visits to give out based on number of openings.  Everyone gets the same amount of these per opening per division.  This effort is totally independent of distance.  Scouting, and scouting money, does not impact recruiting effort.  Therefore, if you have identified someone you want in California and you are in Maine .. a campus visit to your school (if he accepts) or a campus visit to a school 10 miles away is the same.  It is one of your 'X' campus visits.  Same for home visits .. 1 home visit is the same from Maine or 10 miles away.  Those visits do not depend at all on Scouting money.  (Again, according to what was stated).  So it does not jive that you can't recruit guys > 500 miles. 

You can't blanket scout a whole bunch of guys, to the EXACT attributes and potential, at a long distance.  That is where money and distance come in.   BUT, you can get a letter grade of A, B, C, D, F .. etc pretty easily.  Then you can send a scout and get information.  And you can specify the actual things you want to scout.  So, when you are scouting a post player, no more trips that tell you speed, ball handling, PER, and DUR .. you pick the attributes you want to see.  You pick the distance and the 'accuracy' of the attributes that you need to see to decide if the player is good.  Then you recruit him.

That sounds very good to me.

But, it could suck .. everything can suck if done incorrectly.

If the beta world sucks, they likely will not roll it out. 

if prestige is still in this game - everyone is not on equal footing. i'm currently A+ - and drop downs (at least they say drop downs will remain) will continue to fall - first to A+ all the way down. which will give higher prestige schools even more of an advantage than we currently enjoy. at least with pull downs, lower prestige schools can spend enough on scouting trips for the player to accept further recruiting efforts - without the player mass emailing all the higher prestige schools to say he's receptive to recruitment efforts.....this is how you improve from a C prestige to an A - in D2.
the changes that you're over the moon about could have been implemented without this major overhaul.
and you're still describing issues that primarily concern mid-level d1 coaches that aren't getting the chance for an elite d1 job. base level prestige and the ridiculous amount of cash that d1 schools have is the problem.
and if FOX Sports is spending this amount of time/energy on a new WIS HD - then i can't see them rolling back changes, just because they lose 50 or 100 customers.
i'd like to be more optimistic - but we've all heard this song before.

and the 'secret handshake' is called the 'coaches forum'. if d2/d3 coaches want to be successful, they need to read, ask questions and be willing to take chances in recruiting. d1 is screwed, i'll give you that...but d2/d3 isn't that bad - for $12 a season.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/23/2015 4:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by crazyivan on 11/23/2015 1:30:00 PM (view original):
ok, let's say they fix elite d1 - how much time/effort are they going to spend fixing d2/d3? because the changes they are describing will make d2/d3 less than desirable. if i can't pull down d1 players and can't recruit more than 500 miles from campus (no internationals) - how is that a good thing?
there are over a dozen d2 teams in florida (+ PR) - there aren't that many d2 players within 500 miles of south florida for every d2 team to sign...not to mention georgia and alabama schools.
if they don't address recruit generation - they are wasting everyone's time.

1.  No one can pull down Div-1 players ... so everyone is on equal footing.  The teams, in comparison, would still be the same relative to each other.  You just don't have to know the secret handshake to get someone to consider you.  You start out with everyone who is going to consider you already in that mode.  You still have to find the best players.

2.  You can SIGN anyone at any distance for the same effort.  You get X campus visits to give out and X home visits to give out based on number of openings.  Everyone gets the same amount of these per opening per division.  This effort is totally independent of distance.  Scouting, and scouting money, does not impact recruiting effort.  Therefore, if you have identified someone you want in California and you are in Maine .. a campus visit to your school (if he accepts) or a campus visit to a school 10 miles away is the same.  It is one of your 'X' campus visits.  Same for home visits .. 1 home visit is the same from Maine or 10 miles away.  Those visits do not depend at all on Scouting money.  (Again, according to what was stated).  So it does not jive that you can't recruit guys > 500 miles. 

You can't blanket scout a whole bunch of guys, to the EXACT attributes and potential, at a long distance.  That is where money and distance come in.   BUT, you can get a letter grade of A, B, C, D, F .. etc pretty easily.  Then you can send a scout and get information.  And you can specify the actual things you want to scout.  So, when you are scouting a post player, no more trips that tell you speed, ball handling, PER, and DUR .. you pick the attributes you want to see.  You pick the distance and the 'accuracy' of the attributes that you need to see to decide if the player is good.  Then you recruit him.

That sounds very good to me.

But, it could suck .. everything can suck if done incorrectly.

If the beta world sucks, they likely will not roll it out. 

there is most likely going to be some form of distance advantage.

i think that is a good thing, for d2/d3 at least. i've pushed for distance-neutral recruiting for years, but thats always been high d1 for the top players. regular d1 players and d2/d3 players, there has to be a distance component. back when i started, before potential, you literally scouted nationally, at least the good d2/d3 coaches did. it took forever, it was such a grind, looking through every player in the whole damn country, for 1.5 divisions. it wasn't uncommon for me to spend 10 hours in pre-recruiting searching. one of the best things about the potential release was that it reduced the scope, not every single player was in scope, so you could get through them much more quickly.

to me, they should have the top recruits in every division, top 100-200, be distance-agnostic. but to do that for every player would be a mess, it would make recruiting way too much of a grind.

edit: i don't know if seble ever said it here. when i pushed him in a ticket, he said he didn't know, but later, he added "Distance will still be important, I'm just not sure exactly how it fits in to each area yet."

@gillispie1:
If we were trying to mimic real life WRT distance being important, then it would be important to SOME players and not others.  That would mean making 'the far from home', 'close to home' setting that is already generated actually be impactful.  That could make some recruits stay close to home while others are recruitable at a distance.

I was just going by what he said for the process in the other tread to point out the way it is currently described (in the scouting vs recruiting split WRT money) that scouting would be distance dependent and recruiting would not be distance dependent.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/27/2015 2:15:00 AM (view original):
@gillispie1:
If we were trying to mimic real life WRT distance being important, then it would be important to SOME players and not others.  That would mean making 'the far from home', 'close to home' setting that is already generated actually be impactful.  That could make some recruits stay close to home while others are recruitable at a distance.

I was just going by what he said for the process in the other tread to point out the way it is currently described (in the scouting vs recruiting split WRT money) that scouting would be distance dependent and recruiting would not be distance dependent.

In one of the 18 threads dedicated to the update (or maybe the in the dev chat?) Seble said he does not anticipate D3 teams being able to recruit at on a national level.  He said it wouldn't be impossible but it's not something he anticipates coaches being able to do regularly.  This is one (of many) the reasons several coaches are upset; being in a conference where schools are in close proximity will become a huge disadvantage if you can't recruit outside of your region.  

Posted by darnoc29099 on 11/27/2015 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/27/2015 2:15:00 AM (view original):
@gillispie1:
If we were trying to mimic real life WRT distance being important, then it would be important to SOME players and not others.  That would mean making 'the far from home', 'close to home' setting that is already generated actually be impactful.  That could make some recruits stay close to home while others are recruitable at a distance.

I was just going by what he said for the process in the other tread to point out the way it is currently described (in the scouting vs recruiting split WRT money) that scouting would be distance dependent and recruiting would not be distance dependent.

In one of the 18 threads dedicated to the update (or maybe the in the dev chat?) Seble said he does not anticipate D3 teams being able to recruit at on a national level.  He said it wouldn't be impossible but it's not something he anticipates coaches being able to do regularly.  This is one (of many) the reasons several coaches are upset; being in a conference where schools are in close proximity will become a huge disadvantage if you can't recruit outside of your region.  

Right, but that would be because of scouting .. and the inability to throw a wide net and get info on all recruits.

If he does 'recruiting' like he said (1 HV is 1 HV .. you get X HV's per opening, same for CV's etc.), then you could recruit players at a distance.

So you would need to figure out a way to scout on the cheap to some level of comfort then you could recruit them.  Again, if he follows what he says he is going to.  Now if he changes his mind and does things differently, then all bets are off.

Here is what I mean:
1.  Link says:

Resources

Each school gets “Attention Points” based on number of openings. These essentially replace the low level recruiting actions.; X number of campus visits total to use throughout the period. ; X number of home visits total to use throughout the period.

So distances does not impact the recruiting .. an HV is an HV, etc.  Those carry no costs (as far as money is concerned), you get them to use as you want.  Each of the visits and effort would be worth more effective points based on prestige and the other factors listed though.  But distance (except for a recruits desire to play close to or far from home) would not be a factor.


2.  This Link talks about money:

And based on that link, it is only scouting and not recruiting effort that is impacted by money.

========
How am I wrong?  (again, unless he changes what is outlined)

I never said you were wrong, Hughesjr...I happened to remember someone asking about recruiting nationally at the lower levels and Seble made it sound like it wasn't going to be feasible.  Maybe he was alluding to scouting kids will be extremely cost ineffective at longer distances.  I just think there's a lot we don't know about this proposed update.

I don't think I'll have time to comb through all of the threads to find the excerpts I'm looking for, but I'll try if I get a chance.

He also said, “Scouting actions won’t count at all toward recruiting a player like they do now.  It’s purely to gather information and determine your targets.”  He also said, ..."players won’t accept HVs or CVs until they’ve garnered significant interest from your school."  My question is, 'What tools are we using to get recruits interested in us?'  Again, I'm sure there's more to his plan that hasn't been laid out yet.

After the first dev chat I read through all of the proposed changes and made a list of questions (doing that before the dev chat would have been a better idea but, well, real life gets in the way sometimes).  I've just been waiting for the next dev chat to ask them.

And just so everyone doesn't think I am all for every part of the changes .. I absolutely do not like the idea that team A puts in more effort and sometimes the guy signs with team B anyway.  I think that if a team puts in the most 'corrected'  effort (taking into account all the factors that are listed .. ie, close/away from home, etc.), then they should get the recruit.  I am sure there will be other things I hate as well.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/29/2015 11:15:00 PM (view original):
And just so everyone doesn't think I am all for every part of the changes .. I absolutely do not like the idea that team A puts in more effort and sometimes the guy signs with team B anyway.  I think that if a team puts in the most 'corrected'  effort (taking into account all the factors that are listed .. ie, close/away from home, etc.), then they should get the recruit.  I am sure there will be other things I hate as well.

Agreed.  The random variable part of this update worries me as well.

hughes, just to clarify one thing - sebles writeup essentially says there is no distance advantage in the recruiting side of things. i believe he has walked back from that, per his response in that ticket i posted above. i am pretty sure he is now thinking there should be some sort of distance advantage. i agree with you, distance should matter for some players, not all. i expressed this opinion in that same sitemail, who knows what he is thinking though. i just am pretty sure he is planning on SOME form of distance factor in recruiting.

i am not sure about that d3 national recruiting thing, from what he's described, i see no reason you couldn't scout nationally in some places. i suspect it will be similar to today, today d2/d3 schools can't recruit the whole country, but they can recruit some select far away locations of their chosing. only can FSS so much. my impression is the new recruiting would be similar, i guess we'll have to wait and see...

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/3/2015 9:24:00 AM (view original):
hughes, just to clarify one thing - sebles writeup essentially says there is no distance advantage in the recruiting side of things. i believe he has walked back from that, per his response in that ticket i posted above. i am pretty sure he is now thinking there should be some sort of distance advantage. i agree with you, distance should matter for some players, not all. i expressed this opinion in that same sitemail, who knows what he is thinking though. i just am pretty sure he is planning on SOME form of distance factor in recruiting.

i am not sure about that d3 national recruiting thing, from what he's described, i see no reason you couldn't scout nationally in some places. i suspect it will be similar to today, today d2/d3 schools can't recruit the whole country, but they can recruit some select far away locations of their chosing. only can FSS so much. my impression is the new recruiting would be similar, i guess we'll have to wait and see...

I would like to see D2/D3 be able to recruit something that mimics a high school playoff or juco college conference tourney. Obviously from a high school standpoint you could have school class sizes based on enrollment or the size of the town. With only a few coaches per staff, you could only cover so much recruiting and maintain practice of your own team.

There could also be something similar to a Nike or All-Star camp that is recruitable (think LeBron skill camp). For that matter, AAU or something of the like would be nice.

I think it would be cool if we could coach jucos too, but that probably wont happen. If it were, coaches could establish relationships with jucos and become feeder schools to add an element to recruiting that isnt there. Or even find an agent that would help send you recruits.

Posted by paynebrow on 12/6/2015 10:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/3/2015 9:24:00 AM (view original):
hughes, just to clarify one thing - sebles writeup essentially says there is no distance advantage in the recruiting side of things. i believe he has walked back from that, per his response in that ticket i posted above. i am pretty sure he is now thinking there should be some sort of distance advantage. i agree with you, distance should matter for some players, not all. i expressed this opinion in that same sitemail, who knows what he is thinking though. i just am pretty sure he is planning on SOME form of distance factor in recruiting.

i am not sure about that d3 national recruiting thing, from what he's described, i see no reason you couldn't scout nationally in some places. i suspect it will be similar to today, today d2/d3 schools can't recruit the whole country, but they can recruit some select far away locations of their chosing. only can FSS so much. my impression is the new recruiting would be similar, i guess we'll have to wait and see...

I would like to see D2/D3 be able to recruit something that mimics a high school playoff or juco college conference tourney. Obviously from a high school standpoint you could have school class sizes based on enrollment or the size of the town. With only a few coaches per staff, you could only cover so much recruiting and maintain practice of your own team.

There could also be something similar to a Nike or All-Star camp that is recruitable (think LeBron skill camp). For that matter, AAU or something of the like would be nice.

I think it would be cool if we could coach jucos too, but that probably wont happen. If it were, coaches could establish relationships with jucos and become feeder schools to add an element to recruiting that isnt there. Or even find an agent that would help send you recruits.

I believe there is a "recruiting an AAU" tourney in plan. You can also host one if I'm not mistaken.

I'm optimistic about all this, maybe more so than others, but time will tell if the new system is going to be better. I am ready for the beta though. Anybody heard anything on a time frame?