And I'm telling you it's not managers.   It's agents/GMs.   

Posted by tecwrg on 1/20/2016 2:06:00 PM (view original):
I'm arguing for getting managers to stop managing towards saves, and instead using their best pitchers in the highest leverage situations.

It has to start in the front offices. When they start telling managers to be smarter and firing the ones that resist, bullpens will get used better.

Some managers (like Bochy, for example) don't manage to "saves", per se.  They manage by using SET roles and making sure the guys in the bullpen know, understand, and accept their roles (and have skills that are effective in those roles).  He's got a 7th inning guy from both wings, an 8th inning guy from both wings, and a 9th inning guy (as well as LOOGYs)  with contingency plans if someone is tired or ineffective.

That same manager does manage to get the SP through five innings, both for the "win" stat AND to keep the bullpen in their assigned roles.

It will be interesting to see what the Yankees do this season. Chapman can probably be used in multiple innings. A smart manager might consider using him in 6th and 7th, Betances 8th, Miller 9th...while also accounting for leverage.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/20/2016 2:08:00 PM (view original):
And I'm telling you it's not managers.   It's agents/GMs.   

You're right.  It's also sports radio and social media.

If a manager loses a game because he brings his ninth inning closer into a high leverage situation in the 7th inning in July, he gets out of the situation, but then somebody else blows the game in the 9th, said manager gets crucified by the talking heads and on Twitter.   Because he brought his "save" guy in too early, despite the fact that it was likely the appropriate time to bring your best pitcher into the game.

Post-season is treated a little different.  People are slightly more forgiving in an all-or-nothing short series.  But if you do that 2 or 3 times over a couple of weeks in July or August, your head will be on the chopping block.

The external forces that causes a manager to do (or not do) something that's not in the best interests of his team needs to stop.

How do you make that happen?

Managers who don't use players as the GMs who signed them expected them to be used are let go.

In the end, winning cures all.    Say the Yankees deploy their deep bullpen as we're suggesting, and they win, no one cares.    If they have Miller, Betances and Chapman "close" on three consecutive nights and the lose with Miller, Betances in the 9th, the world screams "****!!!  Chapman throws 103!!!  He should be closing."

And EVERY manager is going to say "I don't listen to the fans or the talking heads.   I manage to win games."    Make them prove it.

But here's the catch:   I think there is a difference between getting 2 outs in the 6th with the tying run on 2nd and doing the same in the 9th.   However, I don't think I can make that determination on who can/can't do it in 10 appearances.   I also know, as a manager, I need to win games or the manager part won't be in front of my name very long.  So the entire idea hinges on the GM signing players while explaining to the agent/player that there will NOT be a closer then the same GM letting the fans vent when a "non-closer" blows the game in the 9th without firing the manager.

All that said, there is historical reference to deal with.    Say saves are stricken from the record book.  Our generation will compare everyone to Rivera.   1300 IP, 1 WHIP, 4x as many Ks as walks, 2.2 ERA.   But we know he didn't face 3-4-5 in the order regularly.     Our "new" RP would.   And his results would not be as good even if he had an identical skillset to Rivera.   You have to convince players that the save is BS. 

It's about the winning.  Casilla and Romo have been ping-ponging the 9th inning for the last four years.  The Giants won two World Series, once with Romo as the closer (locking up Miggy on a fastball right down Broadway...  I laugh at your GOAT), and once with Casilla doing most of the closing (with apologies to MadBum)

Nobody complains, nobody squawks.

Because, the RING.

Posted by toddcommish on 1/20/2016 3:03:00 PM (view original):
It's about the winning.  Casilla and Romo have been ping-ponging the 9th inning for the last four years.  The Giants won two World Series, once with Romo as the closer (locking up Miggy on a fastball right down Broadway...  I laugh at your GOAT), and once with Casilla doing most of the closing (with apologies to MadBum)

Nobody complains, nobody squawks.

Because, the RING.

All Romo does is throw sliders. Miggy was expecting it to break, but it never did. But still Miggy the GOAT

Even Boche still uses one at a time as the primary closer, he just switches back and forth.  He doesn't switch it more than once per season.

**** it, everyone has a bad at bat. I don't care

Posted by toddcommish on 1/20/2016 3:03:00 PM (view original):
It's about the winning.  Casilla and Romo have been ping-ponging the 9th inning for the last four years.  The Giants won two World Series, once with Romo as the closer (locking up Miggy on a fastball right down Broadway...  I laugh at your GOAT), and once with Casilla doing most of the closing (with apologies to MadBum)

Nobody complains, nobody squawks.

Because, the RING.

Tec's point isn't so much about who is labeled as the closer. The point is that managers should use their best reliever in the highest leverage situation. If that's the 9th, great. But it could realistically be the 6th.

I posted a fairly long bit on this not terribly long ago on these forums, I think.  I used to be in the camp that said closers were silly, but more and more I disagree with it.  I think most pitchers are most comfortable when they have a reasonably well-defined role or usage pattern.  A "fireman" role makes it a lot more difficult to get into a comfort zone.  If you might come in sometime in the 8th or 9th, but know to start warming up after the 7th, I can see that.  But if you have to be ready on short warmup starting in the 6th inning, that really changes your preparation both mentally and physically.  For the same reason, I prefer to see as few mid-inning pitching changes as possible, at least without advance planning.  I want to see my team's relievers warm up at their own pace, not hurried into games.  It helps them reach their maximum effectiveness, and it helps a little with injury risk.

Of course, all of this depends quite a bit on the overall bullpen situation.  If I'm the 2015 Mets, maybe I bring my closer in early in more situations (as they in fact did, at least relative to most MLB teams).  That's because my next-best relievers are a huge dropoff.  But if I'm the 2016 Yankees, I don't NEED to use Chapman in the 6th, because I have 2-3 other elite arms that can handle that situation.  If there isn't a huge talent gap, then I want to maximize the comfort level - and ostensibly, in turn, productivity - of each of my pitchers individually.  As an O's fan, I'm perfectly comfortable with Darren O'Day putting out the fires in the 7th and 8th, or Brad Brach in the 6th.  Those guys are good pitchers.