"...its obviously you don't know anything about software development, or the history of HD - and that's fine - but why act like you do? "

I guess I cant help not swallowing bull sheet.

Posted by taniajane on 9/10/2016 5:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/10/2016 3:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by taniajane on 9/9/2016 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Gee Gillespie this sure clears it up "...was where seble rewrote the engine sim engine because he couldn't code in the language old admin wrote in .." Yet "sometimes the founder will be required to stay on to assist with the transition, maybe a couple key people, but that's it - and tarek stayed around for over 5 years. its not uncommon to have developers who code in different languages (most developers can code capably in at least a few)---"


So do we have a case of a Very Slow Learner that in Five years can not learn the code? Tell me again how this is "actually extremely common in software companies." Sorry perhaps it is "Common" for you but not for any intelligent and diligent programmer. Not buying that load of garbage as an excuse or an example of a programmer that has 5 years to learn with the previous and original writer and just "could not understand it".

seble was not the HD programmer when tarek was still there - he was assigned to HD after tarek was fired. WIS management is responsible for not cross training, for using those 5+ years to prepare for the founder leaving, not seble. its obviously you don't know anything about software development, or the history of HD - and that's fine - but why act like you do?

Obviously I don't have your Inside Information...amazing certain Customers do. So with your connections you are saying the other posters are dead wrong when they claim Tarek was not there, NOW 5 Plus Years? And Tarek was "Fired" (the man that sold the product) and never, obviously because of WIS mis-management, was tasked with cross training other employees or writing any form of manual to modify or read this secret code,so they just thru Seble into the job that he was unqualified for?

Gee, that is quite a Story.

inside information? no. tarek is the one who talked to us about potential and planned that release, maybe he had some help on the programming from seble but when seble came in afterwards, i got the impression that was definitely not the case. shortly after potential came out, tarek said something to the effect he was let go with 0 notice. maybe he left voluntarily as mully said, but i definitely remember him telling it like it was sudden and he was blindsided. he was asked (on the forums) if he'd be allowed to keep his teams and play, and he was. but then he left not much later, don't blame him.

my timeline could be off too, but i thought WIS sold to fox in 2004 and i only started like 2007 or so, and tarek was the admin for a couple years, until potential came out. ah, wikipedia says 2005 fox bought WIS, and WIS has a page on it from sept 2005 so maybe it was only 3-4 years? for some reason i always thought i came several years after the sale, that is surprising to me in was only 2ish. oh well. maybe i even came earlier, i remember betting a friend at college my SIUE team would win the title at fair odds, and i graduated in 2008, and it definitely took some time to get to where i had dominant teams like that. also, tarek ran a dev chat in early 2009, so i guess it was like 3.5 years he was there? my bad, i thought i played 2 years before potential and came 3+ years after the sale, but apparently i came way less than 3 years after the sale. anyway, when seble came in, he didn't really say he knew nothing about HD or anything, but when he rewrote the sim engine, he explained that nobody at WIS at the ability to make substantial change to HD, that rewriting in a different language was necessary to make future improvements, beyond slight tweaks, possible. theoretically, seble could have been programming behind the scenes while tarek kept admin duties, but it definitely doesn't seem that way from everything that happened.

its pretty normal for a developer to leave (through whatever means) a small company (or a large one) and for there to be a gap created. someone who is close to what that developer did often has to step in, and its universally one of the harder things developers have to do. its not that seble was unqualified - its that its generally very tough to pick up code someone else wrote, that is poorly documented (as is the case in basically every startup), and run with it - especially if you don't know that programming language very well.

Ive been playing this game for over 10 years so as a paying customer who has paid for 99 percent of his seasons here is my take. Things move on and it's time for a change in this game. I was here like a year before protential and protenital in my opinion killed the game. BUT I adjusted and finally got to a place after almost 7 years to coach decent. I'm glad that WIS is changing recruiting. It's a needed change and for a real coach its a good thing. Recruiting now is all about prestige and money right, and to an extent in Div 1 recruiting is all about money. People dont recruit until 2pm the day of sigining and then they poach players from coaches that put most of their money into the player in the past two days of recruiting. This needs to stop and there needs to be some value of coaches wanting to stay at Mid Majors. Yes prestige matters but it's also about money and you need to be in a BCS conference or a full conference in Div 2 or 3 to get the money you need to compete as of today. This change addresses that situation a little. For those who actually tested you can still poach a player but i'm not going to say how to do it.

Now I see most coaches whining and ******** and saying this guy made a code that happened over 10 years ago and some dumb *** thinks that because your working as a programer at a company that means you can learn their what they coded. HAHAHA that is a joke. Developers always change their language (term for programming or coding) when they write and most write in different langages (coding) when they make a code so they have a work advantage. That way if they get fired the person who takes over cannot rewrite what they made. Seble has done a great job and he had to rewrite the game and since he is the lead developer he needed his design to be in place. How would you like working at a place for over 7 years and you are the person in charge and you are working with someone else work. Congradulations and I hope all you guys leave that cry and ***** becuase you can not coach anyway. The real coaches or people that really love the game will accept the change as we did when protential came out. Its the same game you just need a little different on how to do things when you recruit. It is a better chanllenge and a better product and at the end of the day that's what its all about.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/10/2016 4:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by taniajane on 9/10/2016 5:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/10/2016 3:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by taniajane on 9/9/2016 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Gee Gillespie this sure clears it up "...was where seble rewrote the engine sim engine because he couldn't code in the language old admin wrote in .." Yet "sometimes the founder will be required to stay on to assist with the transition, maybe a couple key people, but that's it - and tarek stayed around for over 5 years. its not uncommon to have developers who code in different languages (most developers can code capably in at least a few)---"


So do we have a case of a Very Slow Learner that in Five years can not learn the code? Tell me again how this is "actually extremely common in software companies." Sorry perhaps it is "Common" for you but not for any intelligent and diligent programmer. Not buying that load of garbage as an excuse or an example of a programmer that has 5 years to learn with the previous and original writer and just "could not understand it".

seble was not the HD programmer when tarek was still there - he was assigned to HD after tarek was fired. WIS management is responsible for not cross training, for using those 5+ years to prepare for the founder leaving, not seble. its obviously you don't know anything about software development, or the history of HD - and that's fine - but why act like you do?

Obviously I don't have your Inside Information...amazing certain Customers do. So with your connections you are saying the other posters are dead wrong when they claim Tarek was not there, NOW 5 Plus Years? And Tarek was "Fired" (the man that sold the product) and never, obviously because of WIS mis-management, was tasked with cross training other employees or writing any form of manual to modify or read this secret code,so they just thru Seble into the job that he was unqualified for?

Gee, that is quite a Story.

inside information? no. tarek is the one who talked to us about potential and planned that release, maybe he had some help on the programming from seble but when seble came in afterwards, i got the impression that was definitely not the case. shortly after potential came out, tarek said something to the effect he was let go with 0 notice. maybe he left voluntarily as mully said, but i definitely remember him telling it like it was sudden and he was blindsided. he was asked (on the forums) if he'd be allowed to keep his teams and play, and he was. but then he left not much later, don't blame him.

my timeline could be off too, but i thought WIS sold to fox in 2004 and i only started like 2007 or so, and tarek was the admin for a couple years, until potential came out. ah, wikipedia says 2005 fox bought WIS, and WIS has a page on it from sept 2005 so maybe it was only 3-4 years? for some reason i always thought i came several years after the sale, that is surprising to me in was only 2ish. oh well. maybe i even came earlier, i remember betting a friend at college my SIUE team would win the title at fair odds, and i graduated in 2008, and it definitely took some time to get to where i had dominant teams like that. also, tarek ran a dev chat in early 2009, so i guess it was like 3.5 years he was there? my bad, i thought i played 2 years before potential and came 3+ years after the sale, but apparently i came way less than 3 years after the sale. anyway, when seble came in, he didn't really say he knew nothing about HD or anything, but when he rewrote the sim engine, he explained that nobody at WIS at the ability to make substantial change to HD, that rewriting in a different language was necessary to make future improvements, beyond slight tweaks, possible. theoretically, seble could have been programming behind the scenes while tarek kept admin duties, but it definitely doesn't seem that way from everything that happened.

its pretty normal for a developer to leave (through whatever means) a small company (or a large one) and for there to be a gap created. someone who is close to what that developer did often has to step in, and its universally one of the harder things developers have to do. its not that seble was unqualified - its that its generally very tough to pick up code someone else wrote, that is poorly documented (as is the case in basically every startup), and run with it - especially if you don't know that programming language very well.

People are stupid Gillispie I posted after you to try to explain it also about coding and programming

this is a novel. a good read.

D1 recruiting is definetly getting an improvement in 3.0, it's not A+ teams getting their picks, then going down the prestige line and conf money... Recruiting was broken in D1. D2 and D3 only needed more incentives to recruit at a distance for years where near states lack talents

"Are some of the tech-savvy posters saying that the prior version of HD was not documented? That it cannot be retrieved? That there are no backup disks with the program on it, or they were disposed of like a person throwing their hat over a wall to ensure they climb it?"


No, these alleged genius programmers are claiming that the prior code was so super secret and complicated (admitting that the programmer worked for a period, time period that varies depending on what BS they are throwing at the moment, after selling the product to the FOX). Apparently they claim the staff was not intelligent enough to learn this secret, complex program or even to require Any sort of documentation for it (which instills a ton confidence from me on the wild chance that was true)

Almost no computer application these days is built from scratch. Most use third party libraries or depend on some type of standard technologies (DotNet for example). When those libraries either get obsoleted by either being abandoned by their owners or superceded by better technology, this leaves your application in a bind. Nobody wants to invest time/resrouces in maintaining old technology (especially one which isn't turning a healthy profit) so most companies have to either adapt or develop new products.

Posted by buddhagamer on 9/11/2016 12:51:00 PM (view original):
Almost no computer application these days is built from scratch. Most use third party libraries or depend on some type of standard technologies (DotNet for example). When those libraries either get obsoleted by either being abandoned by their owners or superceded by better technology, this leaves your application in a bind. Nobody wants to invest time/resrouces in maintaining old technology (especially one which isn't turning a healthy profit) so most companies have to either adapt or develop new products.

I assume that has been done for all the games offered on WIS (not)

Posted by iwanturmind2 on 9/10/2016 11:04:00 PM (view original):
Ive been playing this game for over 10 years so as a paying customer who has paid for 99 percent of his seasons here is my take. Things move on and it's time for a change in this game. I was here like a year before protential and protenital in my opinion killed the game. BUT I adjusted and finally got to a place after almost 7 years to coach decent. I'm glad that WIS is changing recruiting. It's a needed change and for a real coach its a good thing. Recruiting now is all about prestige and money right, and to an extent in Div 1 recruiting is all about money. People dont recruit until 2pm the day of sigining and then they poach players from coaches that put most of their money into the player in the past two days of recruiting. This needs to stop and there needs to be some value of coaches wanting to stay at Mid Majors. Yes prestige matters but it's also about money and you need to be in a BCS conference or a full conference in Div 2 or 3 to get the money you need to compete as of today. This change addresses that situation a little. For those who actually tested you can still poach a player but i'm not going to say how to do it.

Now I see most coaches whining and ******** and saying this guy made a code that happened over 10 years ago and some dumb *** thinks that because your working as a programer at a company that means you can learn their what they coded. HAHAHA that is a joke. Developers always change their language (term for programming or coding) when they write and most write in different langages (coding) when they make a code so they have a work advantage. That way if they get fired the person who takes over cannot rewrite what they made. Seble has done a great job and he had to rewrite the game and since he is the lead developer he needed his design to be in place. How would you like working at a place for over 7 years and you are the person in charge and you are working with someone else work. Congradulations and I hope all you guys leave that cry and ***** becuase you can not coach anyway. The real coaches or people that really love the game will accept the change as we did when protential came out. Its the same game you just need a little different on how to do things when you recruit. It is a better chanllenge and a better product and at the end of the day that's what its all about.

+1

Somehow the conversation continually gets polarized between old HD was awful and new HD will be great, missing the crucial middle piece of what other potential options and directions could new HD have taken to right the many wrongs of old HD without creating a mass exodus? Admin didn't choose to engage in this discussion, and now people are left to defend new HD as if it's the solution, which everyone can tell is simply not true.

There were things to fix Vandy. It was not really taken into account, but some stuff will be fixed anyways, scouting will probably cause problems to the game. But it is what it is. I think we can be positive and continue to support the game until it becomes pointless.

Posted by taniajane on 9/11/2016 12:30:00 PM (view original):
"Are some of the tech-savvy posters saying that the prior version of HD was not documented? That it cannot be retrieved? That there are no backup disks with the program on it, or they were disposed of like a person throwing their hat over a wall to ensure they climb it?"


No, these alleged genius programmers are claiming that the prior code was so super secret and complicated (admitting that the programmer worked for a period, time period that varies depending on what BS they are throwing at the moment, after selling the product to the FOX). Apparently they claim the staff was not intelligent enough to learn this secret, complex program or even to require Any sort of documentation for it (which instills a ton confidence from me on the wild chance that was true)

well, i really tried to be reasonable in my explanations to you, but i see there was no value in it.

look man, you aren't a programmer, but you have multiple programmers on here telling you that the way programming works is nothing like what you think. why do you think you know better? code inherently is not trivial to read. developers not sufficiently documenting their code is the longest running joke in the industry. don't trust us? fine. literally, ask any developer on the planet. developers don't document their code unless you beat them over the head repeatedly to do so, and still, there will often remain very tricky sections. for some reason, you think i'm an idiot, although i would ask rhetorically how an idiot would rack up 4 of the most dominant runs in the games long history. but that is really not the point. frankly, the smarter the coder, the harder it is for me to read their code. mediocre coders might be sloppy, but they don't typically use overly complicated loops, complex recursion, or tricky data structures. i don't even need to know the language of a mediocre programmer to read their stuff. but with a really sharp 6 figure type guy? it can be really tough. you'll be going along ok until you get to some important section, might only be a page or two, might only be a dozen lines, but the looping and recursion can be so complex, the math and algorithms can be so far from intuitive, you can spend an hour per line and still lack the precise understanding required to modify said code. hell, i spent 10 hours once trying to understand a 2 page function i wrote for some language parsing and processing, i couldn't figure out what the hell i did in those 10 hours, enough to modify it - and that was only 5 years removed from when i wrote it.

you'll read that last bit and say, he's an idiot. but try me - ask anyone reasonably intelligent in the programming world, who has at least 5+ years of experience, and they'll tell you the same type of stuff me and budda are saying. these experiences are universal. its not like reading a book. go find an untranslated book written in old english a thousand years ago and tell me exactly what it says. hey, its english! should be easy, right? maybe if you are sophisticated expert in language arts, then you can translate. sure, you or i could probably read the book and get the gist of it - but when you modify code, you need to know *exactly* what it does. its more like having to be the guy who writes the modern english translation - there is a HUGE gap between being that guy, and the guy who can merely get the gist of most of the book.

Posted by oldresorter on 9/9/2016 1:44:00 PM (view original):
good stuff about programming becoming outdated. Makes sense to me.

two small - half full type - comments about the update.

First off, with all these top coaches leaving or at least cutting back, should be easy pickings for those top 'fully on board' coaches who are left - right?

Second, if the recruits get spread around more evenly, the game becomes more about game planning and team planning strategy, less about recruiting, again, that is a good thing for top coaches - isn't it?

1st point - surely! i suspect at least a third of titles won in the last year, year and half or so, in d1, will have been won by coaches who are gone. that has to have an impact.

2nd point - it depends. IMO there are two main attributes to a coach, their coaching and their recruiting, and while there is some correlation, i find they are more uncorrelated than i would have expected. there are elite coaches and recruiters who are far from elite on the other half. i tend to think of many of our top rivals in this game in terms of their two attributes. all of the elite coaches and elite recruiters are far above average on the other side of the fence, so its probably hard to see for folks not at the top, but i think most folks are either better at recruiting or coaching themselves, or play with other folks who are. its no different at the top, whether its top 25 all time great, top 10, or even top 5, IMO.

so, for folks like us (coaching-first), i would agree, generally they would be even further ahead. but recruiting-first coaches, i don't think its necessarily good for them. although, i very strongly believe top recruiters are going to be way above average recruiters in the new game as well, on the whole.