but they put in a near-max effort. this wasn't a case where penn st ran out of cash and only sent half your APs. if that were the case, you might have an argument, because you would have put in 20x the effort or some such.

I respect your zeal fighting for the little guy and, as you can see in the forums, I am also a proponent of smaller schools having a chance for solid recruits. but I think you flat out refuse to recognize the absolute intrinsic distinctions between divisions in college athletics, which I think makes your opinion on this matter hard to support.

ultimately, this means whatever multiplier is used between divisions is not working in remotely a realistic fashion.

Seble Spudball

" only a scholly in the balance should beat that D2 "
Stop with the "shoulds" already. The world isn't what it is because you believe it "should" be a certain way.

" but they put in a near-max effort "
Listen. For the second time, they did it late. They weren't even on the recruit's list for the first day or two. He may not want to admit it, or he may still believe all his "shoulds," but it wasn't the best effort a D1 team could have put forth. I offered 20 minutes (33% above the D1 offer) and just over 25% more AP's, and more importantly the advantage compounded because I did it much earlier.

This result was an outlier. It was probably a small chance of going my way. It is good for the game that it can happen. The only argument is how often represents too many, but from the game point of view it certainly needs to be possible.

And you can take all my old quotes out of context and still miss the point. The context is that if a D1 school really wants the kid and recruits accordingly, they are almost bombproof. But the feeling that D1 is entitled to whatever D1 wants is out the door, and it is time to move on. Actually, I hope y'all keep feeling that way -- D2 will keep beating D1 if you let it happen. Bottom line: don't whine to Seble, recruit better.

Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 9:28:00 AM (view original):
" only a scholly in the balance should beat that D2 "
Stop with the "shoulds" already. The world isn't what it is because you believe it "should" be a certain way.

" but they put in a near-max effort "
Listen. For the second time, they did it late. They weren't even on the recruit's list for the first day or two. He may not want to admit it, or he may still believe all his "shoulds," but it wasn't the best effort a D1 team could have put forth. I offered 20 minutes (33% above the D1 offer) and just over 25% more AP's, and more importantly the advantage compounded because I did it much earlier.

This result was an outlier. It was probably a small chance of going my way. It is good for the game that it can happen. The only argument is how often represents too many, but from the game point of view it certainly needs to be possible.

And you can take all my old quotes out of context and still miss the point. The context is that if a D1 school really wants the kid and recruits accordingly, they are almost bombproof. But the feeling that D1 is entitled to whatever D1 wants is out the door, and it is time to move on. Actually, I hope y'all keep feeling that way -- D2 will keep beating D1 if you let it happen. Bottom line: don't whine to Seble, recruit better.

hahahahahaha

This was funny.

As that D1, I put in 1 CV & 18 HV & 15 min. during period 1, then came back when Regis jumped into a tie at the start of period 2 (jumping from "moderate" to "VH") and freed up cash to finish the last 2 HV & start to drive Regis back to "high".

Spud is never going to back of his crazy position at this point. That's his choice, but he has a ludicrous position. If a D1 rebuild signs priority #1 early, then moves on to priority #2 and maxes out effort and loses, then it is a terrible choice to take on a D1 rebuild.

Still not working. I doubt people will play this game if this happens... I know I won't. I don't mind a mid-major stealing a player from my big six team... I understand with préférences the kid would prefer another program than mine. But D2... No. If the player is any good, he will make D2 unbalanced, and he just screwed a D1 team of a season... and a recruiting period.

It's illogical. Late effort, ap, anything, préférences. It's bad for the game. We do not want D2 level to be about getting a steal or two to win the NT... It will totally be about luck now and not skills. I was battling USC, lost, the other one won a battle against UNC... he has the edge. Can't get a top ranked player, that can actually be a player in D1, too bad, your D2 team is doomed... 64, 32 NT, forget elite eight, you need to be a Lucky dude.

Posted by rogelio on 9/26/2016 10:31:00 AM (view original):
As that D1, I put in 1 CV & 18 HV & 15 min. during period 1, then came back when Regis jumped into a tie at the start of period 2 (jumping from "moderate" to "VH") and freed up cash to finish the last 2 HV & start to drive Regis back to "high".

Spud is never going to back of his crazy position at this point. That's his choice, but he has a ludicrous position. If a D1 rebuild signs priority #1 early, then moves on to priority #2 and maxes out effort and loses, then it is a terrible choice to take on a D1 rebuild.

+1

so much of 3.0 is great, but the effects of prestige (especially from D1 to D2, it seems) seriously need to be reassessed (probably amped up--either than or APs tamped down...or both I guess)

I don't care how much attention Lena Dunham gives me. If Scarlett Johansson makes an offer, the choice is made.

My brain is incapable of processing the logic 3.0 is built on. I think that's why I've been so fascinated by this whole process. Thankfully the fascination is wearing off.

I agree with the majority here. A D2 should never beat anything but a very low D1 - and that excludes all Big 6 schools regardless of prestige, IMO. D2 can have access to that kind of player, if passed on by Big 6 teams. But pretty much any serious effort - early or late, as long as it's before the player signs - should put that D2 back behind the red light.

Although I will say, as far as the division multiplier goes...


As a former D2 benchwarmer (not basketball), I can tell you with confidence that the prestige difference between D1 and D2 is vastly greater than between D2 and D3.

Ideally, we would have a different formula for inter-division battles depending on whether it's D2 vs D3 or D1 vs D2. This was reflected in the old game by how much cash was available per division. But with every division having the same number of attention points and a limit on HVs/CVs, we'll really need the higher division multiplier to do the work in this case

Posted by Benis on 9/26/2016 9:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 9:28:00 AM (view original):
" only a scholly in the balance should beat that D2 "
Stop with the "shoulds" already. The world isn't what it is because you believe it "should" be a certain way.

" but they put in a near-max effort "
Listen. For the second time, they did it late. They weren't even on the recruit's list for the first day or two. He may not want to admit it, or he may still believe all his "shoulds," but it wasn't the best effort a D1 team could have put forth. I offered 20 minutes (33% above the D1 offer) and just over 25% more AP's, and more importantly the advantage compounded because I did it much earlier.

This result was an outlier. It was probably a small chance of going my way. It is good for the game that it can happen. The only argument is how often represents too many, but from the game point of view it certainly needs to be possible.

And you can take all my old quotes out of context and still miss the point. The context is that if a D1 school really wants the kid and recruits accordingly, they are almost bombproof. But the feeling that D1 is entitled to whatever D1 wants is out the door, and it is time to move on. Actually, I hope y'all keep feeling that way -- D2 will keep beating D1 if you let it happen. Bottom line: don't whine to Seble, recruit better.

hahahahahaha

This was funny.

+1

Posted by zorzii on 9/26/2016 10:33:00 AM (view original):
Still not working. I doubt people will play this game if this happens... I know I won't. I don't mind a mid-major stealing a player from my big six team... I understand with préférences the kid would prefer another program than mine. But D2... No. If the player is any good, he will make D2 unbalanced, and he just screwed a D1 team of a season... and a recruiting period.

It's illogical. Late effort, ap, anything, préférences. It's bad for the game. We do not want D2 level to be about getting a steal or two to win the NT... It will totally be about luck now and not skills. I was battling USC, lost, the other one won a battle against UNC... he has the edge. Can't get a top ranked player, that can actually be a player in D1, too bad, your D2 team is doomed... 64, 32 NT, forget elite eight, you need to be a Lucky dude.

That's exactly the point that Spud refuses to acknowledge. This kind of signing makes BOTH D1 & D2 unplayable. The strategy at D2 will be to shoot the moon. A couple Top 10 position players on a D2 team will absolutely demotivate everyone that doesn't luck out to get them.

I should clarify again: there are two sides of this. I'm not concerned with the part where PSU, in fact, lost the RNG to Regis. I don't find the arguments that "high" cannot mean some chance in the RNG persuasive. I suspect those probabilities do not favor the winner sufficiently, but that part is not tested by this case. THE ISSUE is that PSU, with max effort (~1500 to ~2000 AP; two category preference disadvantage; and 5 minutes playing time difference) could not put a D2 team down to moderate or low to take Regis out of the RNG altogether. That seems fairly well tested here and it's a failure and needs to be fixed.

The part I find funny is that Seble wanted 3.0 to be more 'realistic'. This is the opposite of realistic.

A top 50 recruit who gets a GUARANTEED START in the Big 10 chooses to play at D2 Regis butthole state. So realistic.

Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 8:55:00 AM (view original):
" this is insane! no way a big six D1 that put in max effort should lose to a D2! "
Well, your "should" might not be everybody's "should." And in this case that isn't what happened anyway. The D1 team was too slow to realize what was happening. Actually, they didn't even appear on the recruit's list for the first day or two of recruiting.

C'mon Spudhole...you know there is no consideration credit in 3.0.

Penn St could have waited till the 2nd session to do ANY recruiting and it would not have mattered. Bottom line, a DI maxed out school should almost NEVER lose out to a DII school. Maybe except in Spudworld.

Maybe with preferences 100% in the wrong direction, but I don't even know if I would be OK with that.

Posted by rogelio on 9/26/2016 10:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 9/26/2016 10:33:00 AM (view original):
Still not working. I doubt people will play this game if this happens... I know I won't. I don't mind a mid-major stealing a player from my big six team... I understand with préférences the kid would prefer another program than mine. But D2... No. If the player is any good, he will make D2 unbalanced, and he just screwed a D1 team of a season... and a recruiting period.

It's illogical. Late effort, ap, anything, préférences. It's bad for the game. We do not want D2 level to be about getting a steal or two to win the NT... It will totally be about luck now and not skills. I was battling USC, lost, the other one won a battle against UNC... he has the edge. Can't get a top ranked player, that can actually be a player in D1, too bad, your D2 team is doomed... 64, 32 NT, forget elite eight, you need to be a Lucky dude.

That's exactly the point that Spud refuses to acknowledge. This kind of signing makes BOTH D1 & D2 unplayable. The strategy at D2 will be to shoot the moon. A couple Top 10 position players on a D2 team will absolutely demotivate everyone that doesn't luck out to get them.

I should clarify again: there are two sides of this. I'm not concerned with the part where PSU, in fact, lost the RNG to Regis. I don't find the arguments that "high" cannot mean some chance in the RNG persuasive. I suspect those probabilities do not favor the winner sufficiently, but that part is not tested by this case. THE ISSUE is that PSU, with max effort (~1500 to ~2000 AP; two category preference disadvantage; and 5 minutes playing time difference) could not put a D2 team down to moderate or low to take Regis out of the RNG altogether. That seems fairly well tested here and it's a failure and needs to be fixed.

Bingo +1