Penn St. v. Regis in Beta - Page 6 - Hoops Dynasty

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Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 10:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rogelio on 9/26/2016 9:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 8:30:00 PM (view original):
"There's no reasonable expectation for a D2 team to be able to successfully recruit a top 100 player that any big 6 team is interested in."

Really? What do you want, D1:”I’m interested, he’s mine.” Or D1: “I recruited him through legitimate effort, he’s mine.” The former is nothing more or less than a sense of entitlement on steroids. Granted, that characterization fits most of the wailing, but is that really you, too?
Troll. 1540 AP - 20 HV - 1 CV - 1 Start - 15 minutes. Please identify exactly how much you put in. State it exactly.

There is no considering credit. The only difference being on the recruit early would gain you is having more AP. You've refused to be forthcoming. I would prefer a screen grab.

I have always stated that there is a reasonable way to make the changes in recruiting function properly. In a full world, PSU would not have been able to win that recruit, but the loss would have been to Utah or Colorado or Stanford. Not being able to take out a D2 team renders the game unplayable. It should be relatively easy to adjust the effort credit assigned to such effort between D2/D3 & D1 to fix this issue. I expect that WIS will agree with me.
I have tried not to embarrass you unnecessarily, but you keep asking for it. (1) I have already listed my recruiting effort. Read it. (2) They don't call it "considering credit" any more, but the better your Preference edge, the more powerful your AP's are. So getting the recruit unlocked and getting the promises in makes your AP's more powerful early on. That is not news to anyone who paid attention to the beta. (3) The recruit was there for the taking if you had understood the competition. Had you bothered to push me down to Moderate, as you certainly could have done, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. (4) "Not being able to take out a D2 team renders the game unplayable." What BS. You were totally able to take that recruit and didn't recruit him skillfully enough. Penn State's failure to sign the recruit was not a failure of the game.

9/26/2016 11:37 PM

mullycj

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...JUST....go...away SPUDHOLE..

9/27/2016 8:40 AM

mullycj

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Posted by CoachSpud on 9/26/2016 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 9/26/2016 2:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rogelio on 9/26/2016 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Hughes, it's fixable through Division scaling on AP credit; conference prestige; and the fact that no Top #10 position player is going D2. Top 100 players, since they do not need to be discovered, should be rejecting effort from D2 & D3 teams. Period. No excuse. The signing never happens. That fits in the structure of the new game.

Here's the thing: Regis was on 1st, but the final AP tally sounds like 1540 to 1925 (according to spud); 20 HV + 1 CV each; a start either way and 15 minutes promised to 20. Regis had 1 preference (close to home) and maybe defense, but that was it. In a straight race for a Top 10 position recruit, a Big6 team needs to be able to put away any D2 team or this game doesn't work.

If that battle plays out in regular HD, then I assume Wyoming or Colorado or AZ St. or someone will jump in and take the lead over PSU. No problem. Choosing playing D2 ball over playing BigTen is just stupid.
I do agree that Big Ten should win every time against D2 .. certainly with anything near equal credit.
And with anything near equal recruiting effort they DO win every time. That's not what this case is about, though.

"And with anything near equal recruiting effort they DO win every time"

L M A O

Penn State spent FULL recruiting effort.
20 HV ; CV

The extra APs equal less than 4 extra HVs. Even someone as thick headed as you can't argue that point.

9/27/2016 9:17 AM

casperthegm

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Full recruiting effort indicates to me that Penn State both maxed out all recruiting options AND they were on the recruit with AP's from the start. Anything less is not full recruiting effort in my opinion.

Those initial AP's from the team that was on the recruit first continue to accrue, especially if scholly, home visit and campus visits are made early. That's not a small impact. It's good recruiting strategy and rewards the team that made the effort to find and go after the recruit early. Penn State had that opportunity but did not do so immediately, from what I've read here.

9/27/2016 9:36 AM

Benis

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So what is 'full effort' really then? If I have 100 APs to spend for all my openings then I need to use all 100 for every cycle starting with the first cycle? Or can I use 1/4 of my APs starting with 1st cycle and still be considered 'full effort'?

9/27/2016 9:39 AM

kcsundevil

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Seems to mean if you miss the first cycle, you're even more screwed than you were in 2.0.

Fun game.

9/27/2016 9:48 AM

rogelio

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That's not a play able game, casper. D1 teams are going to get beat by other D1 teams, then move on to back up options. If this is how the game plays out, then that isn't really possible.

Besides, PSU spent 1540 AP total compared ~1950 (although Spud seems unwilling to simply state the number). If PSU had only put in enough AP to unlock all the actions (say, 400) and put in no further AP and maxed out all other actions, then I would understand your position. I would not agree, but I could understand drawing the line there.

The argument I am making is specifically that a signing like this will damage both D1 & D2. That it is clear that D2 AP is nearly equivalent to D1 AP. If this had been a bad BCS team versus a bad D1 team, then that's a categorically different discussion. This was a bad/rebuilding BCS team versus a good, but not great, D2 team. Regis should have been knocked down to "Low" on that kind of equivalence of effort, not merely even "moderate". Otherwise, the game will have severely perverse results in recruiting.

9/27/2016 9:49 AM

mullycj

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Posted by casperthegm on 9/27/2016 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Full recruiting effort indicates to me that Penn State both maxed out all recruiting options AND they were on the recruit with AP's from the start. Anything less is not full recruiting effort in my opinion.

Those initial AP's from the team that was on the recruit first continue to accrue, especially if scholly, home visit and campus visits are made early. That's not a small impact. It's good recruiting strategy and rewards the team that made the effort to find and go after the recruit early. Penn State had that opportunity but did not do so immediately, from what I've read here.

That's a ridiculous statement. You obviously don't understand 3.0 yet.
So with 5 schollies you are going to unlock ONE recruit and put ALL AP effort into him and leave 4 walkons......
NOT realistic.

And as SOME of us have said the entire time. APs and effort on DAY 4 are IDENTICAL to APs and effort on Day 1. For the last time - EFFORT DOES NOT ACCRUE!!

NO CONSIDERATION CREDITS. A recruiting bump for playing time can occur any time. Doesn't have to be day 1. As long as the promise preceeds the AP points.

9/27/2016 9:49 AM

casperthegm

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Posted by Benis on 9/27/2016 9:39:00 AM (view original):
So what is 'full effort' really then? If I have 100 APs to spend for all my openings then I need to use all 100 for every cycle starting with the first cycle? Or can I use 1/4 of my APs starting with 1st cycle and still be considered 'full effort'?

Good question Benis. I think the main thing is to be on the guy right from the start- those points snowball, especially when you get the scholly offered, minutes offered, and trips done early. If that is done with a decent amount of AP's(how many is subjective) then that's what I consider full effort. Again, all of this is subjective, but my point is that more can be done than showing up on a recruit later and putting in all the visits and everything and saying that is max effort. The other team did a good job finding the recruit, getting on him early, and those early AP's have a big impact.

Edit; I've read the other posts since my last one and if I'm wrong about the extra benefit of initial AP's then I have no problem backing off from what I said. My understanding was that the longer you'd had those items unlocked and used the larger advantage it would be during each cycle. If I'm wrong then you've definitely got a case here.

9/27/2016 9:56 AM (edited)

Benis

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Here's what everyone is saying.

APs in itself are worth the same whether they're applied day 1 or day 3.

HOWEVER, if you the recruit has a preference of wants to play and you promise a start on day 1 then your subsequent APs after that point will now carry that additional preference bonus.

So, how many of PSU's APs were carrying that additional VG preference vs Regis's APs is the question here. That would impact the overall 'effort' total.

Edit - not just APs carrying the additional VG but also the HVs and CV.

9/27/2016 10:03 AM

rogelio

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Casper, I believe you are thinking of the effect of a "wants to play" preference. Effort gets a multiplier for minutes promised before the action or AP, but only when a recruit "wants to play". My understanding is that multiplier is not affected by promised starts, but only promised minutes. Otherwise, there is no inherent advantage to a point of AP in cycle #1 or cycle #8. I'm not entirely clear whether that multiplier affects AP or just HV/CV credit.

In this example, the recruit wanted to play, and, before I sent any actions, PSU offered 15 minutes to accrue that multiplier before sending any HV or CV. I could have gone more, but I really wanted to use this as a test-case for what happened when Spud's redlight turned green. If early AP actually counted a great deal more than late, then that would even further strengthen my argument that D2 & D3 AP into a Top 100 or Top 200 OVR ranked recruit should be rejected outright. That is virtually the exact same patch that WIS had to apply previously and it is the right one now.

9/27/2016 10:06 AM

Benis

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Also, I think the fact that the team needs to be on the player from day 1 to be considered 'full effort' is way off here. You could start going for a guy on day 1 giving him 10 APs a cycle and then increase it in the 2nd session to 100 APs a cycle. Is that going all in from the start?

Or you could not be on the player until the 3rd cycle of the 1st session and put in 100 APs a cycle. Is that no longer 'being on him from the start'?

This isn't like a poaching type situation where PSU tried jumping in on a player middle of the 2nd session and just dumped 20 HVs in one cycle. He want in on the guy sometime in the 1st cycle and spent a huge portion of his AP budget on him throughout the battle. That's early enough in my opinion to be considered 'being on a recruit early'.

9/27/2016 10:10 AM

noleaniml

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I have been very pro 3.0, but even I agree that no Big 6 D1 school that even puts in moderate effort should be able to be beat out by any D2 school if a player thinks he is a D1 player. If PSU had come in late with minimal effort, then I could see a recruit choosing to go to D2, but that's not what happened. I'm not going to go off the deep end and say this makes the game unplayable or any of that crap - but it's a problem. And one I think will be fixed if it actually starts happening in the production game worlds.

9/27/2016 12:14 PM

kcsundevil

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Posted by noleaniml on 9/27/2016 12:14:00 PM (view original):
I have been very pro 3.0, but even I agree that no Big 6 D1 school that even puts in moderate effort should be able to be beat out by any D2 school if a player thinks he is a D1 player. If PSU had come in late with minimal effort, then I could see a recruit choosing to go to D2, but that's not what happened. I'm not going to go off the deep end and say this makes the game unplayable or any of that crap - but it's a problem. And one I think will be fixed if it actually starts happening in the production game worlds.

This is exactly what the new game is designed to do. It is not a bug or a problem.

If you continue to play knowing this is an intentional game feature, that's your fault.

9/27/2016 12:30 PM

noleaniml

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Posted by kcsundevil on 9/27/2016 12:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by noleaniml on 9/27/2016 12:14:00 PM (view original):
I have been very pro 3.0, but even I agree that no Big 6 D1 school that even puts in moderate effort should be able to be beat out by any D2 school if a player thinks he is a D1 player. If PSU had come in late with minimal effort, then I could see a recruit choosing to go to D2, but that's not what happened. I'm not going to go off the deep end and say this makes the game unplayable or any of that crap - but it's a problem. And one I think will be fixed if it actually starts happening in the production game worlds.
This is exactly what the new game is designed to do. It is not a bug or a problem.

If you continue to play knowing this is an intentional game feature, that's your fault.

You're wrong.

9/27/2016 1:29 PM

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