Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
LOL
What Im funny to you....funny how? Funny looking?
You amuse me in some way.
It's funny, you know. It's a good story, it's funny, you're a funny guy [laughs]... It's just, you know. You're just funny, it's... funny, you know the way you tell the story and everything... Just... you know, how you tell the story, what?
9/28/2016 12:20 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarvolon on 9/28/2016 10:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 4:31:00 AM (view original):

Marketing
Shortly after the final two worlds upgrade to 3.0, we will begin a marketing campaign to drive new owners into the game. This will involve both the WhatIfSports and FOX Sports properties. We have a great game that is now available to play on any device and is easier for newcomers to comprehend and enjoy. Combine this with our helpful, veteran user base and we should expect to see fuller worlds with greater competition than ever before

Good to know that the staff is totally out of touch. The new game is in absolutely no way "easier for newcomers to comprehend and enjoy," nor will newcomers at this point find an overly helpful user base in the forums. Not to mention, "fuller worlds with greater competition than ever before." TZ has been here since the worlds were full. How can they be fuller than that? Is his memory really that short, or has he totally given over to supporting the company line with politically-motivated bullshit?
The upset user base is a fair point, but I can't help but think that everyone repeating the "this is in no way easier for newcomers" line doesn't remember being a newcomer.

When I joined the game, I didn't realize that FSS was necessary for quality recruiting, and the Player's Guide was giving advice for the game pre-potential. I thought the "probably best to look elsewhere" message from my assistant actually meant that I should look elsewhere. HD 2.0 is in no way friendly to new users.

Scouting may take more time or more trial and error now, but at least new users know it's important and aren't dealing with messages providing active misinformation.
I guess everyone has their own experience. I made the mistake of starting out at a school with 8 open scholarships, but my first recruiting class did take me to the NT and within a year I had a couple of good teams and had won about half a dozen NT games. I'm not saying I was as good then as I am now, but I got decent pretty fast.
My first recruiting class also took me to the NT, and I won my first title in my eighth season, so I didn't feel personally held back all that much by the false or misleading information.

That said, nothing was intuitive or well-explained. In 3.0, things are explained much better. Now if a new coach wants to get really, really good really fast, they're going to have to visit the forums, like they did in the old game. But in 3.0, a coach who doesn't visit the forums will be able to start playing and trying things out. Might take a while to figure out winning strategies, but they'll be actively doing things. In 2.0, you had to figure out all of recruiting (without being told about dropdowns/pulldowns, or that you might as well not bother without FSS, or that "best to look elsewhere" actually means the recruit is interested in hearing more) in less than a week, and then you had a month to sit on your hands until you could try again.

People like me (and presumably you) who search for every last bit of information (including but not limited to reading the forums) were fine with 2.0. But 2.0 had a serious new player retention problem, and it's because not everyone is like you and me. I fully expect 3.0 to be a massive improvement on that front. Even if it's harder to become an expert, it'll be easier to feel like you're doing something.
9/28/2016 12:28 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 12:17:00 PM (view original):
If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would make the HD forums more obvious/easy to find. You wouldn't make a more complicated and less deterministic game. And it's not like the HD forums are any easier to get to than they ever were in the past. So the actual problem - that some people have an information deficit - has not even be addressed.
"Information deficit" is really well addressed in chapel's guide on the forums.

"If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would" clean up the HD forums. A little moderation of the forums would go a long way.
9/28/2016 12:38 PM
Posted by CoachSpud on 9/28/2016 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 12:17:00 PM (view original):
If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would make the HD forums more obvious/easy to find. You wouldn't make a more complicated and less deterministic game. And it's not like the HD forums are any easier to get to than they ever were in the past. So the actual problem - that some people have an information deficit - has not even be addressed.
"Information deficit" is really well addressed in chapel's guide on the forums.

"If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would" clean up the HD forums. A little moderation of the forums would go a long way.
Coming from a guy who stirs up so much around here. Maybe you could start leading by example Spud.
9/28/2016 12:55 PM
Posted by CoachSpud on 9/28/2016 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 12:17:00 PM (view original):
If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would make the HD forums more obvious/easy to find. You wouldn't make a more complicated and less deterministic game. And it's not like the HD forums are any easier to get to than they ever were in the past. So the actual problem - that some people have an information deficit - has not even be addressed.
"Information deficit" is really well addressed in chapel's guide on the forums.

"If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would" clean up the HD forums. A little moderation of the forums would go a long way.
So your theory is that it's best to address the potential difficulty new users experience by not being able to find the information available on the forums by using a guide on the forums? Is it just your reading comprehension that's utterly failing you or is that your cognitive level?
9/28/2016 1:03 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/28/2016 12:17:00 PM (view original):
If you wanted to make the game more approachable for new users, you would make the HD forums more obvious/easy to find. You wouldn't make a more complicated and less deterministic game. And it's not like the HD forums are any easier to get to than they ever were in the past. So the actual problem - that some people have an information deficit - has not even be addressed.
Information deficit isn't the "actual problem". The problem with 2.0 is that the list of things that were not intuitive and counter-intuitive was far too long.

Not intuitive (not an exhaustive list):
Scouting and recruiting are the same activity
scouting and recruiting are part of the same budget
scouting and recruiting happen only between seasons
scouting and recruiting is the first thing you have to do
recruits send you mixed messages, and you need to know what the "scholarship message" is, and what it means because...
recruits sign with "leading" team 100% of the time, even when two teams are essentially even
there are recruits who won't talk to you, and you have to follow a path to find that out for each recruit
player attributes don't match up exactly with practice plan
you will probably be waiting at least 18 months to have a shot at coaching the team you probably had in mind when you signed up - if everything breaks your way

Counter-intuitive (not an exhaustive list):
Recruiting is basically bidding on eBay
all recruits have fully visible, and 100% accurate attribute numbers
recruits make decisions based on how much money you spend on them
recruits never consider depth chart as part of their decision
you shouldn't battle conference opponents, because you want them to have good teams
you shouldn't battle anyone with more scholarships to fill
you shouldn't battle for a recruit 360 miles away with a team that is 350 miles away from that recruit
scouting reports give you the same info over and over

The question is not about a straight simplicity vs. complexity dichotomy. The question is whether the level of complexity roughly matches with the preferences of their target audience. The game can (and should) be complex AND attractive to that target audience. My son was a junior in high school when he signed up for the game under this handle. He's bright, likes sports, likes sports simulations, was intrigued by the idea of this game. But he lost interest after a few seasons. It was too formulaic, felt too much like he needed to "do X, avoid Y, achieve Z". And the high stakes recruiting sessions were not a good fit for a busy high school kid who can't afford to miss sleep. So I took over the handle as kind of a placeholder, until he regains interest (he will likely give it another go when the 3.0 kinks have been smoothed, but with a new handle, because I'm keeping this one now lol). It's only an anecdote, but I don't think he's an outlier. He's the kind of customer who should have liked this game. He gave up not because it was too complex, but because it was too formulaic, counter-intuitive, and just didn't feel anything like a real college basketball simulation.
9/28/2016 1:37 PM (edited)
Posted by CoachSpud on 9/28/2016 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
+1

"It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable."

That is exactly my concern at a time when we are expecting a lot of new users.
a company reaps what it sows - peeve a significant segment of users and they are likely to complain until they give up - and they have the right to do so - in a civil way
9/28/2016 1:40 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
LOL
What Im funny to you....funny how? Funny looking?
You amuse me in some way.
I was trying a movie reference...guess it didnt work. My point remains, people are taking this way too seriously.
9/28/2016 1:40 PM
Goodfellas?
9/28/2016 1:42 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by CoachSpud on 9/28/2016 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
+1

"It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable."

That is exactly my concern at a time when we are expecting a lot of new users.
If you don't like the game, don't complain, just stop playing.

If you don't like the forums... ???
Thats not what I am saying, if you dont like the game to the point that all you are doing is complaining on the forums....well then maybe its time to stop doing something that doesnt bring joy to your life.

OR, you could just send admin all of the complaints, which to me seems more productive than posting it in the forums constantly. I am not saying all complaints are invalid, in fact many of them are valid....but there are constructive complaints....then there is whining, which many posters do on the forums.
9/28/2016 1:46 PM (edited)
Posted by npb7768 on 9/28/2016 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
LOL
What Im funny to you....funny how? Funny looking?
You amuse me in some way.
It's funny, you know. It's a good story, it's funny, you're a funny guy [laughs]... It's just, you know. You're just funny, it's... funny, you know the way you tell the story and everything... Just... you know, how you tell the story, what?
Ha, glad you got it!
9/28/2016 1:43 PM
Posted by mullycj on 9/28/2016 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Goodfellas?
yup
9/28/2016 1:45 PM
I think a lot of people are ignoring the possibility that some of the irritated owners actively want to see the game suffer/die as a result of the updates. People are vengeful by nature. If some long-term users feel wronged by WIS, they may want to actively undermine the future of the game. I'm not in that camp because I want to keep playing SLB and see WIS not fold, but I can see where that could be a motivating factor. Just saying "whining isn't good for anybody" over and over doesn't have a lot of impact if the goal is for the whining to be bad for the company and the game.
9/28/2016 2:01 PM
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
LOL
What Im funny to you....funny how? Funny looking?
You amuse me in some way.
I was trying a movie reference...guess it didnt work. My point remains, people are taking this way too seriously.
Are you sure I didn't get the reference?
9/28/2016 2:39 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 9/28/2016 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by crabman26 on 9/28/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):
Wow, this thread is hilarious...its a game peeps, if its not enjoyable for you anymore, then stop paying. Its that simple, it really is. We cant control anything WIS is doing, or not doing, so either suck it up and stay, or leave. The constant whining and picking apart EVERY little thing said by WIS is incredible around here....we play an internet sports version of Dungeons & Dragons, we are all nerds. Nothing being said on these crying threads is productive. If you want change, you are going about it the wrong way. Band together, and send a well thought out sitemail to admin...THAT is how you make change. Not by insulting, or crying, or whining, or speculating.

It used to be fun coming to the forums to read others thoughts on offenses/ defenses/ gameplanning....now its just unbearable.
LOL
What Im funny to you....funny how? Funny looking?
You amuse me in some way.
I was trying a movie reference...guess it didnt work. My point remains, people are taking this way too seriously.
Are you sure I didn't get the reference?
I was....right up until you asked that question
9/28/2016 2:47 PM
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