OK - this is a tag along thread to the Prestige thread on my recruit battle where I (A+ High) am losing to a (B Very High) school at maxed out effort.

Since I am still in experimental mode, I threw a start and mins at this recruit. (I really don't want to but I am curious as to the impact.) The recruit has NO preference on playing time.

Result : I went from behind H vs VH to ahead VH vs H.
IMO that's a BS result. Especially since playing time is not a preference. IMO start/playing time is getting way too much impact in this battle.

Any similar findings out there?

I really don't think things like this were tested nearly enough in BETA and Seble really dropped the ball on this.

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:13:00 AM (view original):
OK - this is a tag along thread to the Prestige thread on my recruit battle where I (A+ High) am losing to a (B Very High) school at maxed out effort.

Since I am still in experimental mode, I threw a start and mins at this recruit. (I really don't want to but I am curious as to the impact.) The recruit has NO preference on playing time.

Result : I went from behind H vs VH to ahead VH vs H.
IMO that's a BS result. Especially since playing time is not a preference. IMO start/playing time is getting way too much impact in this battle.

Any similar findings out there?

What else did you send in the cycle?

and you're maxed out effort? 20 HVs and 1 CV? Plus probably a couple hundred APs? If you have all the prior effort in and then see a big swing like this, that does seem a little overpowered. If you had only a couple HVs and a few dozen APs, then I could see it. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Is this the same recruit? If so, this makes perfect sense. Even if pt isn't a preference, the start is always going to sway him. If Minnesota and Wisconsin are fighting for a MN kid in real life, I can see Minnesota taking the lead when they've offered him a starting spot as a freshman. I can also see Wisconsin taking the lead back when the higher prestige team matches the start.

ETA - Oh yah, you betcha!

Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

Benis - nothing else was sent in the cycle except for my normal allocation of APs. HVs and CV were already maxed.
And yes - I would agree that would make more sense if we were early in the battle.

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

So you don't think it's realistic that when an A+ team offers a kid a start, he swings back in your favor?

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

This recruit has no playing time preference. And the other team would have already been VH with the RS. Maybe if it happens in the same cycle as the promise otherwise, even with the RS, he is still VH.

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

This recruit has no playing time preference. And the other team would have already been VH with the RS. Maybe if it happens in the same cycle as the promise otherwise, even with the RS, he is still VH.

I think starts and prestige operate independently from the other preferences. It doesn't matter if the player has a playing time preference or not, the start is always going to move him. Just like prestige is always going to move him, regardless of his "success" preference.

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

Kuba -
We are not talking about a team going moving from a H vs VH battle to a VH vs VH battle.
We are talking about a complete FLIP from H vs VH to VH vs H.

Also, you said you haven't put much effort in yet. This means it is early in the battle and PT would have more of an impact.
In MY situation I was already ALL IN maxed out.

Get it??

Shoe - no I don't think the start should cause a reverse flip on the recruit. Do you think a start, by itself, should over ride a B vs A+ prestige advantage?
The sole reason I could have been behind was a Minn promise. But CS never mentioned that. All they said was he was closer to home with Minn.
Either way, I think it has too much of an impact given the limited number of HVs/CV we have.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2016 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

This recruit has no playing time preference. And the other team would have already been VH with the RS. Maybe if it happens in the same cycle as the promise otherwise, even with the RS, he is still VH.

I think starts and prestige operate independently from the other preferences. It doesn't matter if the player has a playing time preference or not, the start is always going to move him. Just like prestige is always going to move him, regardless of his "success" preference.

Yes it is separate. But if the recruit has a wants to play preference then a promise will make that a Very Good from that point on which will multiply all subsequent recruiting actions.

So yes, it will move him but not as much as if he had the preference which would would make his APs he sent along that cycle worth more.

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2016 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

This recruit has no playing time preference. And the other team would have already been VH with the RS. Maybe if it happens in the same cycle as the promise otherwise, even with the RS, he is still VH.

I think starts and prestige operate independently from the other preferences. It doesn't matter if the player has a playing time preference or not, the start is always going to move him. Just like prestige is always going to move him, regardless of his "success" preference.

Yes it is separate. But if the recruit has a wants to play preference then a promise will make that a Very Good from that point on which will multiply all subsequent recruiting actions.

So yes, it will move him but not as much as if he had the preference which would would make his APs he sent along that cycle worth more.

I look at it differently (I don't know that I'm right, but this is why it makes sense to me). The start is separate from the minutes, and therefore separate from the "wants to play" preference. I don't know whether an early start promise has a similar multiplier effect as the minutes, but I suspect it does not. I suspect it has the same weight throughout the process, because intuitively, that's how I would design the game. Are you willing to offer a start, or are you not? If you are, you get a bump. If you aren't, and your opponent is, then he gets a bump, which can make up for other shortcomings. If you decide, at some point before the recruit signs, that you are willing to offer a start, your opponent's bump is erased. I also suspect an A+ start is worth more than a B start (intuitive and realistic), which could explain knocking your opponent down.

Mully, I am sure CS would not have told you you're behind because you haven't offered a start, and your opponent has. At least not in the middle of a battle. I suspect that's the long and short of it, though.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2016 11:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2016 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 10/13/2016 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kubasnack on 10/13/2016 10:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 10/13/2016 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Well no surprise here that we disagree on something else koop.

Difference of opinion if you think a start and PT can swing a recruit from VH-H for one team to VH-H for the other. I think that's way overpowered and I would guess I'm in the majority.

I would disagree with you. One example would be a situation where I am in a battle with a coach. I am H and he is VH. He has put more effort in but told the recruit he is redshirting. I haven't put as much effort in but have decided the recruit can start and play 15 minutes for my team. That should easily move me from H to VH, especially if playing preference is important. I am also assuming we are about even on other preferences of course.

This recruit has no playing time preference. And the other team would have already been VH with the RS. Maybe if it happens in the same cycle as the promise otherwise, even with the RS, he is still VH.

I think starts and prestige operate independently from the other preferences. It doesn't matter if the player has a playing time preference or not, the start is always going to move him. Just like prestige is always going to move him, regardless of his "success" preference.

Yes it is separate. But if the recruit has a wants to play preference then a promise will make that a Very Good from that point on which will multiply all subsequent recruiting actions.

So yes, it will move him but not as much as if he had the preference which would would make his APs he sent along that cycle worth more.

I look at it differently (I don't know that I'm right, but this is why it makes sense to me). The start is separate from the minutes, and therefore separate from the "wants to play" preference. I don't know whether an early start promise has a similar multiplier effect as the minutes, but I suspect it does not. I suspect it has the same weight throughout the process, because intuitively, that's how I would design the game. Are you willing to offer a start, or are you not? If you are, you get a bump. If you aren't, and your opponent is, then he gets a bump, which can make up for other shortcomings. If you decide, at some point before the recruit signs, that you are willing to offer a start, your opponent's bump is erased. I also suspect an A+ start is worth more than a B start (intuitive and realistic), which could explain knocking your opponent down.

Mully, I am sure CS would not have told you you're behind because you haven't offered a start, and your opponent has. At least not in the middle of a battle. I suspect that's the long and short of it, though.

I think you're right shoe. I agree with what you said. Including the bump of A+ being better than bump of B.

What I'm saying, and what I think Mully is saying, is that the bump is worth maybe too much. The start is basically another way to send effort like APs and HVs. So how many HVs is a promised start worth? 5? 10? 20? I think that's the question.

"I think you're right shoe. I agree with what you said. Including the bump of A+ being better than bump of B.

What I'm saying, and what I think Mully is saying, is that the bump is worth maybe too much. The start is basically another way to send effort like APs and HVs. So how many HVs is a promised start worth? 5? 10? 20? I think that's the question."

Agree 100% with last 2 posts. And yes, the issue is not with the bump but with the dramatic effect of the bump.
And shoe - I agree with your line about CS. I am a little surprised they didn't say, "we can comment on the battle once recruiting is over". But to blame it on the distance advantage vs. start/mins just adds to customer confusion.