I think WifS takes suggestions from it's users for two reasons:

1. They always have. I personally felt, for quite some time, they took TOO much user input. If they incorporated Bob's suggestion and ignored Al's, something had to be wrong with them as far as Al was concerned. And, because of that, we get this sort of reaction to change.

2. I feel it's a fragile business. On your to do list, where is WifS? I don't know but, when I lost internet for a couple of days, I didn't think about my WifS teams. To me, this is more routine. I get up, turn on the news to make sure Kim Jong un didn't blow something up and check my teams while it's on. If I don't have time, I check them later but I don't worry myself over it until it's done.

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/17/2016 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/17/2016 1:55:00 PM (view original):
Well, it is not our call to decide what is best for the game. Our decision is.. Do we pay to play the game or do we go elsewhere. Same decision you get to make when McDonald's changes their hamburger lineup or if budweiser introduces a beer.

We don't get to make those things.. We get to decide if we consume them.

This isn't always the case however. It is entirely up to WIS (and specifically how those who make the core decisions on how HD is developed) to decide if they want/value customer input. If they don't read the forums, or look at submitted customer tickets, or any other external means of us to voice our concerns then sure, they make all the decisions in a vacuum and we as consumers decide whether we buy their product or go elsewhere.

It looks to me however, that WIS is making a better effort to at least consider our concerns as existing customers to how to improve their product to better retain us as loyal customers (retention) while still trying to appeal to new customers who might not have a voice here.

Typically most larger corporation will acknowledge customer feedback in some manner (i.e. large outcry via social media over some perceived injustice) but its very rare they will take suggestions on how to improve their products as most commercial products don't have any type of platform that the customers can usually convey that information to those people who actually make the decisions.

Sure, so does McDonald's and Budweiser. They all have comment sections, pay people by giving them a free beer or sandwich and then make decisions.

But if any randomness in the recruit decision is a deal breaker or if having to scout is a deal breaker .. well, that is staying in the game.

Eventually, all the A+ prestige teams will fill back up. We will reach an equilibrium.

When they introduced potential and limits on players in certain areas, lots of people quit. Some very good coaches quit. And we all learned how to play the game the new way. I mean, before, almost all players were the same. If you wanted to increase passing, practice it. The only real issue was WE .. and you could bump that up by playing a guy. I certainly like set limits on attributes .. and each player is unique. It was very controversial change though. I like 2.0 much better than 1.0 ... I do recognize that some people like the other way.

I do want them to make some adjustments for EEs in 3.0 .. but that is not a deal breaker for me.

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/17/2016 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/17/2016 1:55:00 PM (view original):
Well, it is not our call to decide what is best for the game. Our decision is.. Do we pay to play the game or do we go elsewhere. Same decision you get to make when McDonald's changes their hamburger lineup or if budweiser introduces a beer.

We don't get to make those things.. We get to decide if we consume them.

This isn't always the case however. It is entirely up to WIS (and specifically how those who make the core decisions on how HD is developed) to decide if they want/value customer input. If they don't read the forums, or look at submitted customer tickets, or any other external means of us to voice our concerns then sure, they make all the decisions in a vacuum and we as consumers decide whether we buy their product or go elsewhere.

It looks to me however, that WIS is making a better effort to at least consider our concerns as existing customers to how to improve their product to better retain us as loyal customers (retention) while still trying to appeal to new customers who might not have a voice here.

Typically most larger corporation will acknowledge customer feedback in some manner (i.e. large outcry via social media over some perceived injustice) but its very rare they will take suggestions on how to improve their products as most commercial products don't have any type of platform that the customers can usually convey that information to those people who actually make the decisions.

Bingo on your first paragraph.

I'm not sure exactly which type of products you're referring to but I work in the consumer products industry and this is not true. We collect consumer verbatims (consumer comments from phone calls, emails, social media, etc) and base many decisions on what consumers tell us. This is how we know what to fix. We don't wait until the consumer has already moved on to a competitor or left the category completely before investigating what needs to be improved.

I'm not sure exactly which type of products you're referring to but I work in the consumer products industry and this is not true. We collect consumer verbatims (consumer comments from phone calls, emails, social media, etc) and base many decisions on what consumers tell us. This is how we know what to fix. We don't wait until the consumer has already moved on to a competitor or left the category completely before investigating what needs to be improved.

For most physical consumer products (anything not-internet based like WIS), most consumers don't have any direct means of providing consumer feedback other than complaints. If I had some great idea on how your company's products could be improved (whatever that may be) would I even know how to get that information to you (obviously your company could do its part but do most of your customers know how to get non-complaint information to the right people even).

It is also an expected culture thing as well in both consumers/producers. If we go to a restaurant to have a meal, even if you are a culinary expert and get served a dish you think you can improve, would you say anything to your server? Would that comment even make it to the chef? Would they view it as productive or just as a complaint? It is definitely something that companies would have to cultivate to teach their customers that they *are* listening and show them where/how to provide that valuable feedback.

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/17/2016 4:12:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure exactly which type of products you're referring to but I work in the consumer products industry and this is not true. We collect consumer verbatims (consumer comments from phone calls, emails, social media, etc) and base many decisions on what consumers tell us. This is how we know what to fix. We don't wait until the consumer has already moved on to a competitor or left the category completely before investigating what needs to be improved.

For most physical consumer products (anything not-internet based like WIS), most consumers don't have any direct means of providing consumer feedback other than complaints. If I had some great idea on how your company's products could be improved (whatever that may be) would I even know how to get that information to you (obviously your company could do its part but do most of your customers know how to get non-complaint information to the right people even).

It is also an expected culture thing as well in both consumers/producers. If we go to a restaurant to have a meal, even if you are a culinary expert and get served a dish you think you can improve, would you say anything to your server? Would that comment even make it to the chef? Would they view it as productive or just as a complaint? It is definitely something that companies would have to cultivate to teach their customers that they *are* listening and show them where/how to provide that valuable feedback.

We have a phone number and website on the package that you can use to provide either a complaint and compliment (called a testimonial). Both are incredibly valuable. These are compiled quarterly and are tracked on the # of complaints by issue (i.e. my bottle leaked!). Then when we implement a fix, we can see if it actually did fix the issue by observing the # versus previous quarters or years.

And of course they will often get a coupon or something for a free product if they do complain to compensate them for the issue they had. But we are listening and taking corrective actions continuously. As I said before - consumer is boss.

As for ideas besides complaints, all our brands have facebook pages where people post can post comments (can be found by searching or through the website that's on the package). These are usually more positive than - 'this product stinks!'. And again, there are people who do read them.

But I will add - for WIS, I don't think they necessarily need us to tell them how to implement changes or w/e. But I do think they need to understand why people are leaving (i.e. complaining). This could be from long time users but perhaps more importantly, new users. Why did they play 1 season and not re-up? Gotta answer that question.

Oh and last thing :)

I mentioned before- we do a TON of consumer research. Sitting down with a consumer face to face is hugely valuable. They will often give ideas or thoughts on what we could do to make their lives better.

Posted by Benis on 11/17/2016 4:59:00 PM (view original):
But I will add - for WIS, I don't think they necessarily need us to tell them how to implement changes or w/e. But I do think they need to understand why people are leaving (i.e. complaining). This could be from long time users but perhaps more importantly, new users. Why did they play 1 season and not re-up? Gotta answer that question.

A good suggestion would be to send a leaving customer an e-mail to complete a short survey which grants them a discount code for one of the other WIS products if completed. But I agree it would be something WIS would have to be likely pro-active on in order to get some good feedback on issues which are not allowing them to get good customer retention (either long-time and/or first time players).

In my job - which isnt an internet based business - one of my key missions is to make sure our customers are happy with our work. Talk with them about how we are doing, what is on their mind about the services we provide, etc......I do a pretty good job of getting feedback and adjusting what we do. I dont take instructions from our customers, but I listen hard to what they say and try to come up with smart ways for us to deliver better service - better in the eyes of our customers. But that's just me.

There are a lot of owners in the major D1 conferences in Smith. A vast silent majority might like the changes.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/17/2016 8:28:00 PM (view original):
There are a lot of owners in the major D1 conferences in Smith. A vast silent majority might like the changes.

Or they may be so disgusted by the changes they're just playing out their seasons. Or they may be withholding judgment. No one knows, and anyone who claims they do are full of it.

Perhaps. But there are a lot of coaches at the majors schools that I've been led to believe will be available soon if not already.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/17/2016 1:38:00 PM (view original):
No, I understand that. They say it every thread.

Again, ignoring EE, the gripe is that no one can be 100% sure they've won a recruiting battle if another team is in on him. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. It is if you're a A+ D1 team because you basically got to cherrypick players. But it's not a bad thing for the game as a whole.

Mike, this is a simplified version of 1 or 2 issues people have had. Again, you are coming on the backend right now and honestly don't understand how many people have left or all the different points of contention there were in the last few months. The argument that people are leaving because they can't dominate is by far the weakest argument that's been made since the update rolled out and is a poor attempt by some supporters. The problem is those supporters don't realize the people that they are running off are the people who have done more for new users in this game over the last 5-10 years than many realize. Believe me when I say, domination was not their motivation.

Spud has earned his reputation as a troll for a reason. For him to talk about the negative people on the forums doesn't tell the story of how he incites a lot of the arguments.

As far as the 100% certainty of winning is just a preference issue. I don't care for it, but it's not a big enough deal for me to care. My concern there is this update was started with a premise of helping new users learn the game easier. Please explain how uncertainty helps a new user understand the game easier?

New users still don't have a properly updated guide. I was told one of the negatives of the old game was new users had to search the forums, because the guides were out of date and that veterans were hiding all the secrets so they could keep dominating (which is a lie). Users put together easy to find documents and constantly requested these helpful documents to be stickied which were never acknowledged (except for AEJones how to win thread). Here we are, the guides are still out of date and people are still referring to the forums, except the vast majority of the knowledgeable user base is gone, or just can't answer those questions. I started a thread asking a question about camps that didn't receive a single answer. Ultimately it was a simple answer I was able to determine myself, but not for about a week after I asked it.

As far as making the game more competitive. At DI, yes, there is now more competition for top recruits, but the EE issue comes into play, because you are punishing coaches for being successful. Does that make sense? On the other end of the spectrum, I kept hearing how it would be easier for new users to compete with the guys who have been dominating DII and DIII for years. Yes it took some time to learn, but a new guy is not going to understand how to beat out an experienced coach for DI level talent now. If anything, those guys who have been at the top in the lower divisions are going to be even harder to beat. Why do we even have DIII recruits now? They are useless.

There is a group of us who dislike the update, but still enjoy the game enough to stick around. People still complain, because they are passionate about the game and see obviously glaring problems that are not being addressed. We've seen how previous updates were botched and world populations never recovered. You mentioned earlier that the populations have suffered, and obviously something needed to change. The problem was they were not advertising the game. How can you expect the game to grow if you don't tell people it exists?

That's a lot.

I don't know enough to present legit arguments against virtually ANY complaint. However, if you know Duke swoops in on a player late, after you've been wooing him for several cycles and have no chance, that's just not good for gameplay. I don't have to have a 1000 seasons to know this. HBD I know. Bottom feeder is trying to sign the best FA. On the last cycle, the previous WS winner comes in and offers lesser deal(as in Duke could never offer as many AP points, HV, etc, etc by then in HD) and he signs with WS winner. What? That's how HD was working.

Veteran users will always have an advantage. Whether or not new users can learn the game easier may or may not happen. But, now, if I'm at Vanderbilt and Veteran User A is at Kentucky, I can go after the same recruit. I have a chance. That was not the case before. So, even though VU-A is a much better owner, I can crack thru on the top players.

User guides have always sucked. Not sure why anyone familiar with the site would expect more.

EEs are great players. They will, in theory, become spread out due to the new recruiting program. No one SHOULD ever have 6, that's an embarrassment of riches, but they have in the part. That should come to an end. BTW, it's hard to feel bad for someone who does have 6.

We've had this "advertising" discussion many times in HBD. People who want to play sim games are familiar with search engines. They can find sim games. It's a limited market.

"People who want to play sim games are familiar with search engines. They can find sim games. It's a limited market."

This is bad marketing 101 in my opinion. I really like this game a lot and have been hooked since day 1. But I had never heard of it until about 1.5 years ago. A coworker mentioned it to me randomly one day. If I had known about it 10 years ago, I would have been playing all this time. Basically you don't know what you don't know. I didn't know this awesome game existed.

Also, ironically, I've lived in Cincinnati for the past 8 years where WIS was created.