I just dropped my final 2 teams earlier this week. I've been a vocal voice against the changes, not in some sort of effort to protect any perceived advantages I had being at upper d1 schools but because the changes simply in my opinion didn't address the biggest needed changes in HD, and the changes that were made celebrate values that I simply don't find enjoyable, realistic, or a positive future for HD. Some will say good riddance because I kept saying through Beta and beyond that this was poorly conceived and poorly rolled out and pretty much all meaningful long-term coaches were ignored while clueless users dominated the Beta. WIS doesn't have to listen to me or anyone else, fair enough, but they alienated and are losing a customer that for a decade worked to make HD the best it could be.

Ive met in an internet sort of way a lot of great coaches over the years, I'll miss the coaches and the HD community for the most part, other than the blind 3.0 apologists who lack perspective. WIS essentially threw up a middle finger at coaches who had built dynasties, the actual name of the game. If you won't listen to or respect your customers then I'll quit paying you.

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 8:17:00 PM (view original):
I just dropped my final 2 teams earlier this week. I've been a vocal voice against the changes, not in some sort of effort to protect any perceived advantages I had being at upper d1 schools but because the changes simply in my opinion didn't address the biggest needed changes in HD, and the changes that were made celebrate values that I simply don't find enjoyable, realistic, or a positive future for HD. Some will say good riddance because I kept saying through Beta and beyond that this was poorly conceived and poorly rolled out and pretty much all meaningful long-term coaches were ignored while clueless users dominated the Beta. WIS doesn't have to listen to me or anyone else, fair enough, but they alienated and are losing a customer that for a decade worked to make HD the best it could be.

Ive met in an internet sort of way a lot of great coaches over the years, I'll miss the coaches and the HD community for the most part, other than the blind 3.0 apologists who lack perspective. WIS essentially threw up a middle finger at coaches who had built dynasties, the actual name of the game. If you won't listen to or respect your customers then I'll quit paying you.

I'll miss you, Dave.
I hate seeing the game lose great Coaches.

Posted by gigrant on 11/15/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):
the problem I had w/ the Beta is there were WAY too many coaches in there who were under-qualified to assist w/ the Beta. guys like Spud who have no clue what college basketball is really like, several rookies how didn't understand HD enough yet to contribute, and a few malcontents who undermined some of the process. i went in with high hopes and spent countless hours identifying and working on bugs during the first season, less time during the 2nd, and no time during the 3rd. i was completely heartbroken by the end as i saw a few minor improvements and more than a few major problems, and things like hiringing logic and freshman game talent completely ignored. seble is probably a nice guy, but he did HD no favors with the 3.0.

Chapelhillne is an example of one of the good guys in HD who worked hard to figure out the new system and is doing a good job with it while helping others w/ their questions. New dudes should watch him and read his posts.

I can't agree with this more. Mike, please disregard spud and ward. Both of them entered the Beta with a world of knowledge about a game they had played 2-3 seasons at the time with absolutely no success yet, while arguing with vets who had been around 5-10 years. There were others just like them, but these two made the most noise. My personal opinion is there were lots of guys who weren't having success and were not willing to learn the game the same way as others, and at this point will champion the new game no matter what is put on the table.

Another significant issue people had is that there were minor changes that could have easily addressed many of the concerns people had about the old game. Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable. There were tweaks during the beta that have improved things from where they started, but the new game has brought along it's own host of problems that didn't fix the existing problems.

It was also beaten to death that 3.0 would be easier for noobs to learn the game and be more forgiving as newbies often blew through their recruiting money the first season or 2 with no success, but now as you just said, it's equally non forgiving as you just blow through your scouting budget.

The guys here who like 3.0 will tell you the people against it were a minority, but that's simply not true. The difference is most of them have already quit or cut multiple teams leaving supporters mostly. For those remaining, there is no option but to quit or try to make the game better. Honestly, I don't believe 3.0 will address retention at all. We lost a lot of people in the transition to HD 2.0 and never recovered that population. We are possibly looking at the same situation in 3.0.

With all of that said, you may like 3.0, especially since you didn't care for 2.0. Most who are still here, but don't like 3.0, just enjoy the game. I believe we are now going into season 3 in Tark, but I also did 4 seasons of the Beta. I sigh and consider quitting every time i begin scouting.

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/15/2016 8:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/15/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):
the problem I had w/ the Beta is there were WAY too many coaches in there who were under-qualified to assist w/ the Beta. guys like Spud who have no clue what college basketball is really like, several rookies how didn't understand HD enough yet to contribute, and a few malcontents who undermined some of the process. i went in with high hopes and spent countless hours identifying and working on bugs during the first season, less time during the 2nd, and no time during the 3rd. i was completely heartbroken by the end as i saw a few minor improvements and more than a few major problems, and things like hiringing logic and freshman game talent completely ignored. seble is probably a nice guy, but he did HD no favors with the 3.0.

Chapelhillne is an example of one of the good guys in HD who worked hard to figure out the new system and is doing a good job with it while helping others w/ their questions. New dudes should watch him and read his posts.

I can't agree with this more. Mike, please disregard spud and ward. Both of them entered the Beta with a world of knowledge about a game they had played 2-3 seasons at the time with absolutely no success yet, while arguing with vets who had been around 5-10 years. There were others just like them, but these two made the most noise. My personal opinion is there were lots of guys who weren't having success and were not willing to learn the game the same way as others, and at this point will champion the new game no matter what is put on the table.

Another significant issue people had is that there were minor changes that could have easily addressed many of the concerns people had about the old game. Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable. There were tweaks during the beta that have improved things from where they started, but the new game has brought along it's own host of problems that didn't fix the existing problems.

It was also beaten to death that 3.0 would be easier for noobs to learn the game and be more forgiving as newbies often blew through their recruiting money the first season or 2 with no success, but now as you just said, it's equally non forgiving as you just blow through your scouting budget.

The guys here who like 3.0 will tell you the people against it were a minority, but that's simply not true. The difference is most of them have already quit or cut multiple teams leaving supporters mostly. For those remaining, there is no option but to quit or try to make the game better. Honestly, I don't believe 3.0 will address retention at all. We lost a lot of people in the transition to HD 2.0 and never recovered that population. We are possibly looking at the same situation in 3.0.

With all of that said, you may like 3.0, especially since you didn't care for 2.0. Most who are still here, but don't like 3.0, just enjoy the game. I believe we are now going into season 3 in Tark, but I also did 4 seasons of the Beta. I sigh and consider quitting every time i begin scouting.

I love the game, still am here but I am vocal about D1. It does not work right now, so changes are needed. If not, well, there is D2.

I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/15/2016 8:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/15/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):
the problem I had w/ the Beta is there were WAY too many coaches in there who were under-qualified to assist w/ the Beta. guys like Spud who have no clue what college basketball is really like, several rookies how didn't understand HD enough yet to contribute, and a few malcontents who undermined some of the process. i went in with high hopes and spent countless hours identifying and working on bugs during the first season, less time during the 2nd, and no time during the 3rd. i was completely heartbroken by the end as i saw a few minor improvements and more than a few major problems, and things like hiringing logic and freshman game talent completely ignored. seble is probably a nice guy, but he did HD no favors with the 3.0.

Chapelhillne is an example of one of the good guys in HD who worked hard to figure out the new system and is doing a good job with it while helping others w/ their questions. New dudes should watch him and read his posts.

I can't agree with this more. Mike, please disregard spud and ward. Both of them entered the Beta with a world of knowledge about a game they had played 2-3 seasons at the time with absolutely no success yet, while arguing with vets who had been around 5-10 years. There were others just like them, but these two made the most noise. My personal opinion is there were lots of guys who weren't having success and were not willing to learn the game the same way as others, and at this point will champion the new game no matter what is put on the table.

Another significant issue people had is that there were minor changes that could have easily addressed many of the concerns people had about the old game. Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable. There were tweaks during the beta that have improved things from where they started, but the new game has brought along it's own host of problems that didn't fix the existing problems.

It was also beaten to death that 3.0 would be easier for noobs to learn the game and be more forgiving as newbies often blew through their recruiting money the first season or 2 with no success, but now as you just said, it's equally non forgiving as you just blow through your scouting budget.

The guys here who like 3.0 will tell you the people against it were a minority, but that's simply not true. The difference is most of them have already quit or cut multiple teams leaving supporters mostly. For those remaining, there is no option but to quit or try to make the game better. Honestly, I don't believe 3.0 will address retention at all. We lost a lot of people in the transition to HD 2.0 and never recovered that population. We are possibly looking at the same situation in 3.0.

With all of that said, you may like 3.0, especially since you didn't care for 2.0. Most who are still here, but don't like 3.0, just enjoy the game. I believe we are now going into season 3 in Tark, but I also did 4 seasons of the Beta. I sigh and consider quitting every time i begin scouting.

Do I give advice to people who I can't and don't know anything about? If so please provide factual information about your claims. Jesus Christ can people keep my name out of there darn mouths!!!!! Please don't compare me to spud!

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

+1

Mike - you make some good points and i see what you mean but actually companies do get input and feedback from consumers all the time. Its called consumer research. I work in R&D in the consumer products industry and this is what we do constantly. We listen to the consumer and understand their tensions and try to solve for them. Otherwise how would we know what they want? Now granted you can't do EVERYTHING they say and you will often hear various conflicting or polarizing opinions but its up to the company to gain this insight and determine what is the right choice. But in the end, consumer is boss.

Im not saying WIS did or didn't listen, I'm just saying what I think they SHOULD do, in my professional opinion. I think Seble did do a pretty good job in Beta btw and he implemented MANY changes we suggested. There are still some things I would still change but its a hell of a lot better than it was in first season of beta.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

Seble basically seemed out of touch with the game itself, how it operated as well as out of touch with the HD user base a whole. Absent, ignorant, and even appeared to lack coding expertise based upon comments. Tarek acted like he was actually knowledgeable about basketball and about HD, and like he actually cared about HD.

I was pretty sure that post would be unpopular.

WifS did research. They ran 4 season test with users of varying experience and viewpoints. Then they released the product. They still have a Customer Support link. They MIGHT make some changes. But this is the product. And, according to a prior post, it was designed to let the n00b catch on faster. Which is a perfect way to bring in new users. If it didn't dumb down the game too much and, admittedly, I don't know if it did, it really shouldn't be a problem. But, even if it did, this is the game you can play. Or drop.

I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

Anyway, if I really enjoyed the game but thought they screwed D1 six ways to Sunday, I'd drop to D2(if that's possible). You could still compete with the same users with fake basketball players. Hell, you could all join the same D2/D3 conference and battle it out for the D2/D3 championships year after year.

But I guarantee you some n00b grabs Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc, when they can.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

You're basically right. It looks like you are smart enough to distinguish between the sour grapes group and those who actually have taken the time to learn 3.0, and hence enjoy it. It is amusing to see someone who admits quitting the beta after a few seasons try to criticize coaches who participated successfully in all seven beta seasons, and tell you not to listen to them. Sort of gives "sour grapes" a whole new dimension, doesn't it?

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

Nothing wrong with spending most of your Scouting cash early. Other than transfers during the beginning of (and throughout session 2 as teams cut players ) nothing changes WRT receuits . Well, ineligible guys might pass their SATs .

I normally sxout as many vuys as I can early. I try to scout as many as I can in the cheapest ways. Cheapest is FSS . . Then hosted camp, then public camp, then Scouting Assistant visits and lastly is individual player Scouting . Individual Scouting costs 10 times more than FSS.

Full disclosure - i really do like 3.0. I think recruiting is a lot of fun.

But the research youre talking about (beta) isnt the research Im talking about. It was something like 6-9 months before beta launched Seble created threads outlining the basic concept of scouting and recruiting. He asked for opinions and input. This was great. There were pages and pages of suggestions and ideas. A lot of people were really excited.

Then beta launched and we saw that a lot of REALLY good suggestions were ignored. A lot stuff we are still talking about. And some of these things were well received by basically everyone. But Seble had the ideas already planned out and didnt want to change. Fine. Like you say, play or don't, its our choice. but thats where a lot of frustration is coming from I think.