Posted by CoachSpud on 11/15/2016 9:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't mind the fact I blew thru the scouting budget in 2-3 days. n00bs are prone to play with the toys and do dumb ****. You learn that way.

This statement seems weird to me: "Seble pretty much was non existent on the forums nor did he address these concerns for years. All of a sudden he shows up one day with a bunch of changes most did not want, did not fix the issues at hand, and much of it was non negotiable."

My assumption is seble was/is a developer for WifS/FOX. It's kind of their game. When was the last time EA Sports sent you an email asking for your input on next year's Madden? There was a time when WifS bent over backwards for the users. I thought that was a terrible business model. That was back when Tarik still owned it. It was run like a mom and pop store. And that's fine. FOX isn't that sort of owner. It's fine to make suggestions, I've made hundreds, but it can't be taken personal when they ignore them(although I have). They're selling product not providing us a playground at the expense of that product. We're the customer. We speak when we don't buy. Then it's up to them to figure out if the changes worked(i.e. more or less $$$ coming in). It's really that simple.

You're basically right. It looks like you are smart enough to distinguish between the sour grapes group and those who actually have taken the time to learn 3.0, and hence enjoy it. It is amusing to see someone who admits quitting the beta after a few seasons try to criticize coaches who participated successfully in all seven beta seasons, and tell you not to listen to them. Sort of gives "sour grapes" a whole new dimension, doesn't it?

I fully learned 3.0, was quite successful at recruiting, even with all the dice rolls. And I found it awful. No sour grapes there, just a bad product.

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

Posted by Benis on 11/15/2016 9:44:00 PM (view original):
Full disclosure - i really do like 3.0. I think recruiting is a lot of fun.

But the research youre talking about (beta) isnt the research Im talking about. It was something like 6-9 months before beta launched Seble created threads outlining the basic concept of scouting and recruiting. He asked for opinions and input. This was great. There were pages and pages of suggestions and ideas. A lot of people were really excited.

Then beta launched and we saw that a lot of REALLY good suggestions were ignored. A lot stuff we are still talking about. And some of these things were well received by basically everyone. But Seble had the ideas already planned out and didnt want to change. Fine. Like you say, play or don't, its our choice. but thats where a lot of frustration is coming from I think.

I've had some GREAT HBD suggestions ignored. Maybe they're not practical to program. Maybe they complicate, or dumb down, the game too much. Maybe some dumbass simply didn't understand them. Maybe I'm a dumbass who didn't explain them properly. Or, quite possibly, they just weren't great.

One man's good suggestion is another man's WTF? moment.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

There purpose is like the ELITE pursuading the Tv programming or the mainstream media to one day hope that people will follow and not revolutionize in the United States for sovereignty close borders and a good economy. This is Tyranny and people who follow it are going to hell and all of them are welcome to go to Canada as the people who put God and Liberty first ALWAYS win!

And one more thing Mike, you mentioned that WIS could determine if changes worked by measuring the dollars coming in. This is true. But it doesn't help you understand WHY it didnt work. You can only learn that by listening to the consumer. Or at least try to listen.

Why did almost every new coach who signed up for Phelan not renew last season? We've both just speculated about the reason but neither of us really knows for sure and unless WIS asks questions and attempts to gain an understanding, neither will they.

They read the forums. I'm not sure they read everything but I think they read enough. I'm also not sure if they send emails to inactive owners but I think they do. I'm pretty sure I recall an exchange with tzentmeyer about it, I was suggesting it, and he said they do.

Guys DII recruiting works SO well... Please just change EEs WIS!

Posted by CoachWard95 on 11/15/2016 9:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

There purpose is like the ELITE pursuading the Tv programming or the mainstream media to one day hope that people will follow and not revolutionize in the United States for sovereignty close borders and a good economy. This is Tyranny and people who follow it are going to hell and all of them are welcome to go to Canada as the people who put God and Liberty first ALWAYS win!

I wish you had a YouTube channel.

Mike, it sounds like you took my noob comment personally or maybe I'm reading into it too much, but the statement was not meant to be derogatory. I just felt like it was an accurate description of a new guy who doesn't know the game yet. The problem I stated is 3.0 is not more simple for the new user and it does nothing to ease the new user into the game. I kept hearing about new users had to find all their information on the forums and that the guides were outdated. Now, the users still are having to look to the forums for guidance and the guides are still outdated.

Also, Benis is correct, the "research" I referenced is not about the Beta. The beta itself was actually pretty productive. I never said otherwise. The issue I'm addressing is many, not just 1 or 2 coaches, had the same complaints that were ignored over a long period of time. Then Seble/WIS came out with the product they were going to roll out which addressed none of the issues that were in place while creating new issues. All this under the expectation that it would fix retention issues (which has yet to be seen).

In addition, you can say if you don't like DI, go play DII or DIII, but many were already doing that under the old system. The issue for many is they don't like scouting. It's a whole lot of extra clicks from the previous system that was not previously needed.

You're absolutely right, that this is their game, and they cannot implement every user's desires, but when you have a large portion of your user base requesting the same changes, you should consider listening, or you won't have a game. When you implement something that chases off roughly 25-30% of your existing customers, and you still don't know if your new retention game plan is going to work, maybe you've done something wrong. The people who complain about 3.0 want the game to exist and succeed, but the current direction does not provide the brightest outlook in the eyes of many.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

It's been like this for literally months. I'll miss competing with guys like Dave too, but I am still very much looking forward to the point where those who enjoy the game can move on and discuss and help new players with the game that exists without every thread turning into a b!tchfest.

Posted by pkoopman on 11/15/2016 11:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

It's been like this for literally months. I'll miss competing with guys like Dave too, but I am still very much looking forward to the point where those who enjoy the game can move on and discuss and help new players with the game that exists without every thread turning into a b!tchfest.

I am looking forward to this to.

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/15/2016 11:35:00 PM (view original):
Mike, it sounds like you took my noob comment personally or maybe I'm reading into it too much, but the statement was not meant to be derogatory. I just felt like it was an accurate description of a new guy who doesn't know the game yet. The problem I stated is 3.0 is not more simple for the new user and it does nothing to ease the new user into the game. I kept hearing about new users had to find all their information on the forums and that the guides were outdated. Now, the users still are having to look to the forums for guidance and the guides are still outdated.

Also, Benis is correct, the "research" I referenced is not about the Beta. The beta itself was actually pretty productive. I never said otherwise. The issue I'm addressing is many, not just 1 or 2 coaches, had the same complaints that were ignored over a long period of time. Then Seble/WIS came out with the product they were going to roll out which addressed none of the issues that were in place while creating new issues. All this under the expectation that it would fix retention issues (which has yet to be seen).

In addition, you can say if you don't like DI, go play DII or DIII, but many were already doing that under the old system. The issue for many is they don't like scouting. It's a whole lot of extra clicks from the previous system that was not previously needed.

You're absolutely right, that this is their game, and they cannot implement every user's desires, but when you have a large portion of your user base requesting the same changes, you should consider listening, or you won't have a game. When you implement something that chases off roughly 25-30% of your existing customers, and you still don't know if your new retention game plan is going to work, maybe you've done something wrong. The people who complain about 3.0 want the game to exist and succeed, but the current direction does not provide the brightest outlook in the eyes of many.

You are correct. Many don't like scouting and having to find players. They want all the info just given to them for nothing and no effort.

Others think that scouting is fun. That it better simulates what coaches do (go find the best players). That it creates competition (to find the best way to identify the highest number of good players with the lowest scouting resources). That it adds many different strategies to recruiting.

Lots of people also hate any 'probabilities' in the final recruit decisions. Others think that the probability involved more closely mirrors real National Signing Days .. where you are waiting for the Letter of Intent, and a recruit pulls something like Terrence Jones did and like 18 year old players sometimes do.

Is it perfect .. certainly not. I don't think the 2nd recruiting session is long enough for either teams with EEs or for coaches changing schools (for example). That criticism aside, I personally find it more fun to play. When the Wooden job change period happens, I will have 10 teams (one in each world).

Others don't like it .. that is also absolutely fine. It is a computer game on the internet .. if you like it, play it. If you don't like it, don't play it.

If enough people like it and WIS makes money, then they will continue to offer the game and continue to upgrade it. If no one likes it and everyone quits the game, then WIS will have to make other decisions.

You have to break some eggs to make a cake. Some people like chocolate cake, others like cheese cake .. some don't like cakes at all and would rather have pie. That's fine .. consume what you like, either in games or in sweets.

Hardball Dynasty has so many ways to get players (tip of the hat to MikeT23 for all he has done there to help players).

You can go for High School guys and get them at a lower age, go for college guys and maybe find guys a couple years older but who are possibly better defined. You can instead look for international players only. Or you can adopt some strategy that combines one or more of those elements. You can even go more toward the Free Agent route, etc.

It's not just one cookie cutter way to get players. Certainly not in any way limited by distance to your team (180 or 360 miles, etc).

There are a plethora of options to build a team.

I think the changes made to HD open up the team building options in a similar way. I could be full of **** too .. anything is possible.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):
I was pretty sure that post would be unpopular.

WifS did research. They ran 4 season test with users of varying experience and viewpoints. Then they released the product. They still have a Customer Support link. They MIGHT make some changes. But this is the product. And, according to a prior post, it was designed to let the n00b catch on faster. Which is a perfect way to bring in new users. If it didn't dumb down the game too much and, admittedly, I don't know if it did, it really shouldn't be a problem. But, even if it did, this is the game you can play. Or drop.

Generally true, but the beta was actually seven seasons.