Posted by pkoopman on 11/15/2016 11:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 11/15/2016 9:36:00 PM (view original):
I don't get all of the "either play or don't" posts. Are they intended to be clever or insightful? The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone. I don't think anyone perceives anything different...

I don't get the "Farewell" or "I'm quitting soon" posts. Are they intended to create change? I can only assume not as you just posted "The days of hoping or expecting wis to do something different with 3.0 are long gone." So what is their purpose.

BTW, as I understand it, only a handful of owners have completed 2 seasons under 3.0. Is that really enough time to determine "how it works"?

It's been like this for literally months. I'll miss competing with guys like Dave too, but I am still very much looking forward to the point where those who enjoy the game can move on and discuss and help new players with the game that exists without every thread turning into a b!tchfest.

+1 That'll be a happy day.

I think anyone who read the title of this thread knew what it was about - and choose to read. Long time customers express unhappiness. For some, seasons they have paid for have been changed into a "new, improved" product they dont want. This was obviously a complaint thread. If you dont want to read complaints, dont read complaint threads.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/16/2016 12:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):
I was pretty sure that post would be unpopular.

WifS did research. They ran 4 season test with users of varying experience and viewpoints. Then they released the product. They still have a Customer Support link. They MIGHT make some changes. But this is the product. And, according to a prior post, it was designed to let the n00b catch on faster. Which is a perfect way to bring in new users. If it didn't dumb down the game too much and, admittedly, I don't know if it did, it really shouldn't be a problem. But, even if it did, this is the game you can play. Or drop.

Generally true, but the beta was actually seven seasons.

3 of which occurred after seble left the company.

Posted by fd343ny on 11/16/2016 5:19:00 AM (view original):
I think anyone who read the title of this thread knew what it was about - and choose to read. Long time customers express unhappiness. For some, seasons they have paid for have been changed into a "new, improved" product they dont want. This was obviously a complaint thread. If you dont want to read complaints, dont read complaint threads.

I'm just trying to get a feel for the game. Complaints are part of that. But, if you're done, you're done. Incessantly yapping about why seems rather pointless. And there is plenty of incessant yapping. I don't get it but I don't mind. I'm trying to figure it out after 10 years away.

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/15/2016 11:35:00 PM (view original):
Mike, it sounds like you took my noob comment personally or maybe I'm reading into it too much, but the statement was not meant to be derogatory. I just felt like it was an accurate description of a new guy who doesn't know the game yet. The problem I stated is 3.0 is not more simple for the new user and it does nothing to ease the new user into the game. I kept hearing about new users had to find all their information on the forums and that the guides were outdated. Now, the users still are having to look to the forums for guidance and the guides are still outdated.

Also, Benis is correct, the "research" I referenced is not about the Beta. The beta itself was actually pretty productive. I never said otherwise. The issue I'm addressing is many, not just 1 or 2 coaches, had the same complaints that were ignored over a long period of time. Then Seble/WIS came out with the product they were going to roll out which addressed none of the issues that were in place while creating new issues. All this under the expectation that it would fix retention issues (which has yet to be seen).

In addition, you can say if you don't like DI, go play DII or DIII, but many were already doing that under the old system. The issue for many is they don't like scouting. It's a whole lot of extra clicks from the previous system that was not previously needed.

You're absolutely right, that this is their game, and they cannot implement every user's desires, but when you have a large portion of your user base requesting the same changes, you should consider listening, or you won't have a game. When you implement something that chases off roughly 25-30% of your existing customers, and you still don't know if your new retention game plan is going to work, maybe you've done something wrong. The people who complain about 3.0 want the game to exist and succeed, but the current direction does not provide the brightest outlook in the eyes of many.

No, not at all. I am a n00b at the new HD. I don't mind if I'm told that outright or it's insinuated. I don't know what I don't know yet. Whether or not it's "easier" for the n00b or not, I don't know. But I've found there are three types here:

1. Complainers. Most say they're leaving. I'm not going to learn much from them other than "EEs suck" and "I can't cherrypick recruits anymore". Not much help to me or the future of the game.
2. Those that quietly enjoy 3.0 but with reservations. They usually start with "I like 3.0 but......." I haven't picked much up from them but it's not their job to help new users. They are still much better for the future of the game than #1.
3. Those that enjoy 3.0 and accept it as it. Several have reached out and provided advice. They're good for me and good for the future of the game. People are leaving. I think EVERYONE knows that. They're intent on helping people enjoy the new version and, possibly, stick around.


As to the scouting requiring "too many clicks", that seems lame. HBD is a time-consuming game. It is NOT for everyone. So, if you don't have time for "extra clicks", HD may no longer be for you. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think there's enough to do in HD. I imagine anyone coming from HBD will feel the same way. Completely new users may feel the same as you or me. We don't know. But HD isn't on the same level of time commitment as HBD. I run 3-4 HBD teams because that's all I have time for. I feel like I could run a dozen HD teams if I kept 2 HBD teams.

Also, I disagree with your premise that those who complain want 3.0 to succeed. It certainly seems like they want to keep their spot at the top of the food chain and, if they can't, burn it down. That's the ONLY reason to drop all your teams and continue to post. I understand how the forums work but, if I was new to WifS, I'd read this forum and think "Not getting my money. This game sucks."

And, for the record, I was a complainer after the last HBD update. It was just interface for me but it made line-up changes annoying and awkward. I hated it and I let it be known. Rather than say "I'm done", I made suggestions. They made a few minor changes, I still wasn't exactly thrilled. But, rather than sabotage the game by constantly complaining in the forums, I decided to play it out and see if it worked for me after a few seasons. It did.

They also made some changes to scouting prospects. Like here, there was much complaining. My thought was "How do you know if it's bad? It takes 3-4 seasons to really know if a prospect develops into a BL player." Yet people were griping after their first draft. It required adjustments and all the noise has settled down. It was what people clamored for for 8 years. When it came out, they realized it wasn't exactly what they expected. There are a few complainers but, overall, it worked. It takes time to know.

I'm not sure the one-two completed seasons is enough to determine "3.0 is an utter failure". Maybe it is.

Mike : I am not leaving. I complain and I am on some D1 coaches side. I am asking for changes. That way, when you hit D1, it will work as intended. D2 hasn't changed that much, you get the chance to grab better talent but everybody does. As for recruiting, you don't pull down anymore, you build momentum and sign players in the second session.

Should I create a #4 category for you?

I was just presenting a general overview of what I've read over the last two weeks or so. I quit SLB years ago. It became a cookie cutter game or the creative theme leagues were virtually impossible to fill. Fortunately, HD came out. I quit HD because recruiting was nothing more than who could pump the most calls, letters, visits, etc into a recruit. I played a season of SLH and Gridiron. Hated both. But, when I left those 4 games, I left them. I didn't litter their forums with my grievances and perceptions of what was wrong. If you like them, play them, not my business. Perhaps others who quit did stick around to gripe. I didn't care because you move on. It's a simsports game.

This has the feel of dudes in a long-term relationship but the girl evolved. Sitting on the couch every Friday night swilling Natty Ice, eating pretzels and watching South Park reruns stopped appealing to her. She moved on. He drives by her house and yells "*****" a few times every day.

Before anyone gets panties bunched, the 1st sentence and last paragraph were intended to be funny. Lighten up, it's a simsports site.

I think there's also some backlash based on how the updated was done. Someone mentioned a few pages back that seble put up posts asking for input on changes, and many of those were ignored. From what I understand (I've only been here a few years) one of the arguments as to why (some) changes couldn't be made was because seble didn't understand the old code. To find out after the beta was setup, and after the plans were made to implement 3.0 that seble knew he was leaving before he started the updates and would leave before the roll out was a little ... weird.

Then it's announced two new people will be running things, and suddenly some changes get put in place mid season (which I'm not sure ever happened before) and there's this idea of New Job Logic finally being worked on. Except ... nobody's heard anything about that for awhile now. Is that still a thing? Can the new people understand the code base so it's not the same problem as before?

I think communications really isn't a strong point for WIS in regards to this game, and clearly hasn't been for awhile.

I'm firmly in the not paying for this game as is anymore camp, I'm running my credits down. I'm not a very vocal complainer on the board, but I don't like many of the changes (not because I'm top tier D1) and don't see many of the larger issues being addressed. The new layout is ... new, and while there are some good things in it, there are bad. Which always happens, nothing is ever perfect. But I don't see any indications that there are plans to Make HD Great Again. In fact, it seems like things are settling down back into general malaise. Maybe I'm too negative, I don't know.

I DO KNOW that it should be a little embarrassing that the company relies on it's paid user base to document their release. Huge kudos to chapel and others that put in the hard work, but it's a little absurd that users had to do that and parts of FAQ and such are still out of date.

I like the game, the idea of the game. I've spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars over the years on it. I just don't thing it's worth continuing to spend money on at this point. Some people agree, some people don't. I am very curious what the userbase will look like a year from now. I'm not saying since I'm going everyone will, but we've all seen the user population posts. I'm really not sure it's going to get better in the short term.

Wow, that's a lot. Anyway, I think there's bitterness by some because they've been burnt on updates before, and in many ways this update was handled pretty poorly. Not from functionality and AP's, but from presentation and handling.

CS is generally terrible. While the Ask MikeT23 thread(which I DID NOT create) is now more a hodge podge of questions, the first version was started by an owner who wanted CORRECT answers quickly about HBD. CS generally didn't answer questions directly and, often, took days to respond. So you'll get no disagreement from me on that.

Programmers leave. Everyone who finds a job that suits them better will take it. Doesn't mean you're not doing your best on your last day. I'm honestly not sure how much public interaction should occur between customer/supplier. As stated, they provide a game, we decide to purchase or not. Sending tickets seems to be the correct way to get a response. Not a post in the forums(although I've done it).

If I had credits, and didn't like the game, I wouldn't play them out. I'd check back in a few months. WifS needs customers. They'll know if they've cost themselves money. And, if they intend to continue the game, they'll make changes.

Of course everyone leaves, and I don't mean to say that he left a steaming pile of something. But based on past behavior, will that answer be used again? That they don't understand the code base?

I don't think that the users should have full control over the game, that would be a mess, but I do think that people that have 3, 5, 10 years of experience in the engine and have some concrete ideas on what could improve it shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand. It's WIS's game, they can do what they want, but based on some interactions I'm not sure that the best options were put in place. My opinion, doesn't mean ****, but whatever.

It's the internet, it's weird. We form a little community. I liked conference chat with full active conferences. Yes, part of that was because building an active conference led to conference cash to make everyone better, but now I've only made I think ....2 posts in any conference chat in 3.0? Of course the first one I posted in the wrong one because of the new clicks. I think many of the problems predicted when the idea was laid out have come to pass.

I don't know. anyone ever played the soccer sim on here? Some of their games are just cruising along on their own and they just take the $5 here and $12.95 there. I don't think this game is going away, but I don't think it'll be actively worked on over the period of months/a year. And I sure don't see more marketing bringing in fresh new faces that like it and stay.

Not trying to be bitter and post a woe is me, but I do think there are reasons people are leaving, and very little of it has to do with the rich being made poor. Are you telling me dac and cbg and dave couldn't adapt and continue winning in the new game?

Yes, that excuse will be used again. Happened in HBD. Sucks but it's a reality.

Long-time owners tend to take "ownership" of the game. While their opinions should certainly be valued, WifS has to sell product. Sometimes changes will NOT benefit the experienced owner but the intention is to bring in new owners.

WifS is an internet community. I certainly enjoy an active chat. But, from what I've gathered, the HD population has been on the decline for some time. The changes were intended to reverse that trend.

Soccer was OK. But, like most games, the SIMAI is inadequate. I was terrible my first season. By the 2nd season, I only lost to human controlled teams. That said, WifS users has declined dramatically over the last 10 years.

Personally, I think the long-term owners would still be the cream of the crop. My perception is they KNEW when they'd win a recruiting battle and that has changed. My opinion is they SHOULD know with some players but there has to be some who aren't sure things because of the most resources. The 18 y/o mind of a player who has been BMOC for 3-4 years is not that easy to read.

Posted by fd343ny on 11/16/2016 5:19:00 AM (view original):
I think anyone who read the title of this thread knew what it was about - and choose to read. Long time customers express unhappiness. For some, seasons they have paid for have been changed into a "new, improved" product they dont want. This was obviously a complaint thread. If you dont want to read complaints, dont read complaint threads.

That would be fine, if those complaints were confined to threads titled "the exodus" or "mass exodus" or "Goodbye cruel world" or "SEBLE FIX EES NOW1!!!!11!!" or the dozens of others that have already been started. The exit trolling has been going on since basically the first day of beta, and it infiltrates almost every thread/topic that makes it past a page.

Some people didnt want these changes. Some people did. Many left a long time ago, and may give it a new try now. Some people like the groundwork, and would like the game to continue to evolve.

Because of a 40 year career in advertising/marketing (concluded this past 9/30 when I retired and, yes, I say that to generate envy :-)), my world view has always been "everything is marketing". How you got your prom date, your job, your wife to let you go to Vegas with the guys, it's all turning benefits into selling propositions that result in the desired behavior.
Businesses need two simple elements to thrive: customer generation and customer retention. Generation comes from presenting your unique or proprietary selling propositions to a ripe target and retention comes from refreshing your product/service bundles to make existing customers maintain a desire level that keeps them in the fold. You don't accomplish both, you're finished.
WIS is struggling on both fronts right now and the tenor of the exchanges among its customers is sourced in frustration levels that only the vendor can diminish.
The core of the new game is what it is. Therefore, those who are dissatisfied with the core should move on. Nothing to see here anymore.
Those delighted with it should be the ambassadors for customer base growth. Express what delights you and there you go: selling propositions that can be backed up with customer testimonial. And a united set of voices to win over the skeptical.
Here is where the rubber meets the road if this game is going to survive: evaluate what the veterans who WANT TO STAY are saying and address them quickly and efficiently. Eliminate the noise and identify the keys to keeping guys who have a history of coaching 4, 5, 6, 10 teams.
For me, that's where I fall. Really like the macro of the new game. Scouting and the strategies applied are cool. The elimination of hoarding 5 stars is good for all involved, except the hoarders. Many will get over that if the changes don't have punitive characteristics. If the EE issue, the job change recruiting disadvantage and the job logic were addressed, all this infighting (which is killing both generation and retention at the same time) would evaporate.
WIS: Show us how much you want this game to succeed. And how much the customers on all sides of these issues mean to you.

C'mon, let's just play ball!