Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 12:24:00 PM (view original):
All sims have "dice roll" components. The better team doesn't always win(much like real-life). I think the problem here is that the recruiting of the better players to give yourself a better shot at the game result dice roll isn't being accepted the same as the game dice roll. Recruiting is now "random" while the game result isn't. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Respectfully, you've done a lot of great work at HBD, but you've been here for like five minutes and think you have a nuanced perspective on the changeover.

You're a good guy and I hope you enjoy HD 3.0, but again respectfully, you don't seem to remember much about 2.0.

No, I don't think that at all.

I've read the forum, a lot of this forum, and the gripe, excluding EE as I think that problem will solve itself, has been that no one knows with 100% certainty if a recruit will sign with them if another school has shown interest. This is the hated "dice roll". If I'm mistaken, please explain. If not, then I stand by my comment.

A recruit has never been yours until he signs with you. The 3.0 changes reduced the odds of winning for the coaches who had built the better dynasties.

I'm not really inclined to debate with you further. Enjoy 3.0.

Yes, 3.0 reduced the odds of winning for coaches who built successful dynasties in an incredibly flawed system that eventually allowed them to perpetuate success without any real skill whatsoever.

I'm not trying to imply those who built successful dynasties weren't skilled but who can know when the game's dynamics endlessly insulated those teams and coaches from any real competition.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 12:24:00 PM (view original):
All sims have "dice roll" components. The better team doesn't always win(much like real-life). I think the problem here is that the recruiting of the better players to give yourself a better shot at the game result dice roll isn't being accepted the same as the game dice roll. Recruiting is now "random" while the game result isn't. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Respectfully, you've done a lot of great work at HBD, but you've been here for like five minutes and think you have a nuanced perspective on the changeover.

You're a good guy and I hope you enjoy HD 3.0, but again respectfully, you don't seem to remember much about 2.0.

No, I don't think that at all.

I've read the forum, a lot of this forum, and the gripe, excluding EE as I think that problem will solve itself, has been that no one knows with 100% certainty if a recruit will sign with them if another school has shown interest. This is the hated "dice roll". If I'm mistaken, please explain. If not, then I stand by my comment.

You're not wrong at all. You and shoe3 completely disassembled kc's objection.

BTW, in a dice roll you have no influence, you just roll 'em and whatever happens, happens. Same for a coin flip, you have no influence, you flip it and whatever happens, happens. The key to understanding the difference in HD is understanding that you are influencing your outcomes all along the way. That there is a decision at the end of some of the processes that is probability based in no way changes the fact that you influenced that decision.

At least at D1, HD 3.0 is now more about luck that it is about skill.

In 3.0, I'm just battling different schools now and hope the *single* dice roll goes my way in order to land a recruit. EEs have always been about "luck" (my 5 star goes in his SO year, another top contender's 5 star stays all 4 years) and now if you're unlucky, you try to get a replacement with both hands tied behind your back and usually now just take a walk on.

Posted by npb7768 on 11/18/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
I've been here 3 years. i agree with MikeT and think his perspective is correct.

* put popcorn in microwave *

i've also been playing for several years and also largely agree with MikeT's perspective. i'm also just glad someone else has chimed in with this to offset the discussion between the same couple folks on either side saying the same things at each other.

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 12:24:00 PM (view original):
All sims have "dice roll" components. The better team doesn't always win(much like real-life). I think the problem here is that the recruiting of the better players to give yourself a better shot at the game result dice roll isn't being accepted the same as the game dice roll. Recruiting is now "random" while the game result isn't. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Respectfully, you've done a lot of great work at HBD, but you've been here for like five minutes and think you have a nuanced perspective on the changeover.

You're a good guy and I hope you enjoy HD 3.0, but again respectfully, you don't seem to remember much about 2.0.

No, I don't think that at all.

I've read the forum, a lot of this forum, and the gripe, excluding EE as I think that problem will solve itself, has been that no one knows with 100% certainty if a recruit will sign with them if another school has shown interest. This is the hated "dice roll". If I'm mistaken, please explain. If not, then I stand by my comment.

A recruit has never been yours until he signs with you. The 3.0 changes reduced the odds of winning for the coaches who had built the better dynasties.

I'm not really inclined to debate with you further. Enjoy 3.0.

Well, I think I know why you're no longer inclined to debate me. Perhaps I have a more nuanced perspective than either us realized.

Using the "It's all random" argument, the proper strategy would be to offers as many scholarships, with as little as required resources, to all the top players. That way, even if 30 teams were on the guy, you'd have a 1 in 30 shot. After all, it's just random. Now, I think we both know that is NOT how it works.

Anyway, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of owners, who understand the inner workings of HD better than I do. But I know it's not "Just all random." As do you.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 2:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 11/18/2016 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 12:24:00 PM (view original):
All sims have "dice roll" components. The better team doesn't always win(much like real-life). I think the problem here is that the recruiting of the better players to give yourself a better shot at the game result dice roll isn't being accepted the same as the game dice roll. Recruiting is now "random" while the game result isn't. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Respectfully, you've done a lot of great work at HBD, but you've been here for like five minutes and think you have a nuanced perspective on the changeover.

You're a good guy and I hope you enjoy HD 3.0, but again respectfully, you don't seem to remember much about 2.0.

No, I don't think that at all.

I've read the forum, a lot of this forum, and the gripe, excluding EE as I think that problem will solve itself, has been that no one knows with 100% certainty if a recruit will sign with them if another school has shown interest. This is the hated "dice roll". If I'm mistaken, please explain. If not, then I stand by my comment.

A recruit has never been yours until he signs with you. The 3.0 changes reduced the odds of winning for the coaches who had built the better dynasties.

I'm not really inclined to debate with you further. Enjoy 3.0.

Well, I think I know why you're no longer inclined to debate me. Perhaps I have a more nuanced perspective than either us realized.

Using the "It's all random" argument, the proper strategy would be to offers as many scholarships, with as little as required resources, to all the top players. That way, even if 30 teams were on the guy, you'd have a 1 in 30 shot. After all, it's just random. Now, I think we both know that is NOT how it works.

Anyway, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of owners, who understand the inner workings of HD better than I do. But I know it's not "Just all random." As do you.

Enjoy 3.0.

Thanks!!

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 2:05:00 PM (view original):
At least at D1, HD 3.0 is now more about luck that it is about skill.

In 3.0, I'm just battling different schools now and hope the *single* dice roll goes my way in order to land a recruit. EEs have always been about "luck" (my 5 star goes in his SO year, another top contender's 5 star stays all 4 years) and now if you're unlucky, you try to get a replacement with both hands tied behind your back and usually now just take a walk on.

But you understand that single dice roll is weighted, right? You do have influence on how much it is weighted in your favor.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 3:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 2:05:00 PM (view original):
At least at D1, HD 3.0 is now more about luck that it is about skill.

In 3.0, I'm just battling different schools now and hope the *single* dice roll goes my way in order to land a recruit. EEs have always been about "luck" (my 5 star goes in his SO year, another top contender's 5 star stays all 4 years) and now if you're unlucky, you try to get a replacement with both hands tied behind your back and usually now just take a walk on.

But you understand that single dice roll is weighted, right? You do have influence on how much it is weighted in your favor.

Yes it is weighted but is it really skill to get better odds?

You can say lining up preferences but that's just expanding the field of combatants (2.0 it was all about distance and $$$, 3.0 is about who decides they want to buy lottery tickets and can they buy enough to get their hat thrown into the ring). WIS just made it different in how we decide to identify recruits (scouting) but make luck play a part in who got a recruit (where previously this was determined only by actions from coaches).

The 5 star recruits weren't given to the elite teams for free (they had to be won just like any other recruit) but were only marginally better (the 4 star guy who stays all 4 seasons probably is more valuable now than the 5 star guy who leaves after his JR season nevermind a guy who leaves after his SOPH one).

If WIS says "5 star guy stays for only 2 years" and buyer beware, then I'm OK with EEs then but in order to compete for titles, you likely have to take that risk. All that has happened now in 3.0 is luck plays a way bigger part (rather than anything the coach controls) in who is competing for titles now that it did in 2.0.

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 3:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 2:05:00 PM (view original):
At least at D1, HD 3.0 is now more about luck that it is about skill.

In 3.0, I'm just battling different schools now and hope the *single* dice roll goes my way in order to land a recruit. EEs have always been about "luck" (my 5 star goes in his SO year, another top contender's 5 star stays all 4 years) and now if you're unlucky, you try to get a replacement with both hands tied behind your back and usually now just take a walk on.

But you understand that single dice roll is weighted, right? You do have influence on how much it is weighted in your favor.

Yes it is weighted but is it really skill to get better odds?

You can say lining up preferences but that's just expanding the field of combatants (2.0 it was all about distance and $$$, 3.0 is about who decides they want to buy lottery tickets and can they buy enough to get their hat thrown into the ring). WIS just made it different in how we decide to identify recruits (scouting) but make luck play a part in who got a recruit (where previously this was determined only by actions from coaches).

The 5 star recruits weren't given to the elite teams for free (they had to be won just like any other recruit) but were only marginally better (the 4 star guy who stays all 4 seasons probably is more valuable now than the 5 star guy who leaves after his JR season nevermind a guy who leaves after his SOPH one).

If WIS says "5 star guy stays for only 2 years" and buyer beware, then I'm OK with EEs then but in order to compete for titles, you likely have to take that risk. All that has happened now in 3.0 is luck plays a way bigger part (rather than anything the coach controls) in who is competing for titles now that it did in 2.0.

Was it skill for a A+ D1 school to plant a flag on a recruit's lawn and scare everyone else off? You already had the prestige and the most resources. Why would a B- school in his backyard even try to get the guy?

I'm ok with saying luck plays a bigger part in recruiting than it used to - I think that's obviously true - but so does strategy and so does prioritization. It's not a zero-sum equation between "luck" and "skill". That's why I prefer to use the term "probabilities", because knowing probabilities, and devising a strategy to maximize them is, in itself, a skill.

Honestly, the new system is the ONLY way a new user can compete with the established vets at big-time schools. First, the vets are just better at the game. Give them identical players as me and they'll beat me senseless time and time again. Second, they were getting the cream of the crop year in, year out. So give them better players and they beat me even worse.

So how do you sell the game to a new user? So far, "Just stay in DII" or, in a way to not sell the game to new users, "Play an EA Sports game." But, even in an EA Sports game, I can take Texas State and, over several seasons, beat Alabama for the championship. Can't happen here under the old system.

Was it skill for a A+ D1 school to plant a flag on a recruit's lawn and scare everyone else off?

It was the "other" coach that decided that it wasn't a winnable battle and decided to go elsewhere (i've battled plenty of lower prestige schools for elite recruits and have won some, lost some and some went uncontested). I can understand why WIS wanted to move away from the 51/49 auction model but like everything else about 3.0, I think they went too far the other way (based on everything else they did to improve parity like removing playoff $$$$, rollover, distance, recruiting caps).

You already had the prestige and the most resources. Why would a B- school in his backyard even try to get the guy?

Prestige is the result of success (otherwise we'd be playing SLB Basketball where we start even every season). Resources are gone. In HD 2.0, the B- school was recruiting that 4 season 2-3 star recruit and would be pitting his IQ heavy lineup versus my volatile lineup which may/may not get decimated season of 4-5 star recruits. They usually had the IQ advantage versus my attribute one.

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2016 3:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 11/18/2016 2:05:00 PM (view original):
At least at D1, HD 3.0 is now more about luck that it is about skill.

In 3.0, I'm just battling different schools now and hope the *single* dice roll goes my way in order to land a recruit. EEs have always been about "luck" (my 5 star goes in his SO year, another top contender's 5 star stays all 4 years) and now if you're unlucky, you try to get a replacement with both hands tied behind your back and usually now just take a walk on.

But you understand that single dice roll is weighted, right? You do have influence on how much it is weighted in your favor.

Yes it is weighted but is it really skill to get better odds?

You can say lining up preferences but that's just expanding the field of combatants (2.0 it was all about distance and $$$, 3.0 is about who decides they want to buy lottery tickets and can they buy enough to get their hat thrown into the ring). WIS just made it different in how we decide to identify recruits (scouting) but make luck play a part in who got a recruit (where previously this was determined only by actions from coaches).

The 5 star recruits weren't given to the elite teams for free (they had to be won just like any other recruit) but were only marginally better (the 4 star guy who stays all 4 seasons probably is more valuable now than the 5 star guy who leaves after his JR season nevermind a guy who leaves after his SOPH one).

If WIS says "5 star guy stays for only 2 years" and buyer beware, then I'm OK with EEs then but in order to compete for titles, you likely have to take that risk. All that has happened now in 3.0 is luck plays a way bigger part (rather than anything the coach controls) in who is competing for titles now that it did in 2.0.

This critique of skill focuses too much on each individual recruit.

The skill now comes in successfully building a team that doesn't rely solely on a bunch of future EE's. Building a successful and cohesive team had always been the goal. It's just a lot harder now to get all of your first choices unless you're aiming really low.