Value of Attention Points Topic

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cal_bears on 11/20/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 8:00:00 AM (view original):
I personally think the new system will solve the EE problem by itself in a few seasons. With the top schools/conferences no longer guaranteed to get all the top players, there will be far less teams with multiple EE in any given season.

But the root of my question was, based on "That was valuable information, and if you weren't paying attention you were hurt", if you aren't part of the collective, or at least staying in the loop, you're double screwed, right? After all veteran owners have the advantage of experience and shared knowledge only serves to make the playing field more uneven.
No, shared knowledge makes the playing field more even. The point I was making before had to do with coaches not figuring out the math in recruiting that was there to be shared.
I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is. Let's make some strides there. There was plenty of variability before in terms of cv vs hv and value of prestige difference, but it wasn't shooting in the dark like this.
Entirely depends on who gets that shared knowledge.

How many people read the forums? I have no idea but I was at this site for 3 months before I even knew there was a forum.

And, judging from the "Mass Exodus" threads, less than 10% hate the new game or don't post.
Keep in mind mike, we've probably lost roughly 1/3 of the old user base and the majority of the users in this game never posted in the forums. That's far more reflective of how many disliked the new game than the mass exodus thread 3 seasons after 3.0 rollout (really, roughly 7 seasons now if you include the beta start). Despite the "we are only 2 seasons in" which again is actually more like 3, this whole thing started awhile ago.
11/20/2016 6:54 PM (edited)
Posted by poncho0091 on 11/20/2016 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by CoachSpud on 11/20/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
"I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is."

I'd be interested in hearing a good argument for this. Something better than "shooting in the dark," please.
Spud here are the points I would make to this. Lets say someone did figure it out, or came close.

1. If they don't share this information, they are going to have an extremely significant advantage over others. Someone is eventually going to have it down. In the previous version, there were tons of notes and more than enough coaches willing to share this information. I never understood the argument that coaches were keeping secrets from new guys. The information was usually very easy to find as I was learning the game.

2. Even if they did share what they found, it's likely to be significantly more complicated for some to understand than it was before. The old system was pretty straightforward. New/casual users will not be comfortable with something that complicated, and may feel it is not worth their time to play a game where they are already at a disadvantage in this regard.

3. New users are going to come into the game and realize there is no way for them to learn how to get better through trial and error, because it is vague and somewhat random. This equals less retention.
In the previous version, it was vital to know all the distance cutoffs, and the HV to CV value at different distances, because 51 always beat 49, so spending any resources on a battle you didn't win was a waste from the start. The *value* of "knowing" the formula decreases in 3.0, because 51-49 no longer wins 100% of the time. What a new player needs to know is that high has a chance, very high has better chance; and the higher you prioritize a recruit, the better you match his preferences, and the more you are willing to offer him, the more likely you will get into signing range.
11/20/2016 8:09 PM
My point: “I actually think it will be kind of cool if that is so hard to figure out that everybody develops their own theories, everybody develops their own strategies based on their theories. THAT would be the game working as intended.” I’m talking about no one knowing the true formula. There would be no actual knowledge to share.

Someone disagreed, saying, “"I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is." This suggests they favor people being able to know the ratios of AP, HV and CV in 3.0. This in turn suggests degrees of shared knowledge, not always fair. This also implies that everyone would play it the same way if they had this knowledge, that there is a best way to play. My question is, what good reason would there be for preferring that, instead of everyone playing their own unique strategy? Why wouldn’t you want everyone playing their own unique strategy? Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

“New users are going to come into the game and realize there is no way for them to learn how to get better through trial and error.”
Poncho, you seem to be of the school of thought that the game needs to be real simple so new users can learn it, implying that new users are so much dumber than new users who started in 2.0. See, I don’t agree with that at all.

BTW, re.: "Keep in mind mike, we've probably lost roughly 1/3 of the old user base" ... not when you take into account so many guys going from many teams down to 1 or 2 or 3. Arguably, THAT accounts for most of the drop, or at least much of it.
11/20/2016 9:42 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cal_bears on 11/20/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 8:00:00 AM (view original):
I personally think the new system will solve the EE problem by itself in a few seasons. With the top schools/conferences no longer guaranteed to get all the top players, there will be far less teams with multiple EE in any given season.

But the root of my question was, based on "That was valuable information, and if you weren't paying attention you were hurt", if you aren't part of the collective, or at least staying in the loop, you're double screwed, right? After all veteran owners have the advantage of experience and shared knowledge only serves to make the playing field more uneven.
No, shared knowledge makes the playing field more even. The point I was making before had to do with coaches not figuring out the math in recruiting that was there to be shared.
I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is. Let's make some strides there. There was plenty of variability before in terms of cv vs hv and value of prestige difference, but it wasn't shooting in the dark like this.
Entirely depends on who gets that shared knowledge.

How many people read the forums? I have no idea but I was at this site for 3 months before I even knew there was a forum.

And, judging from the "Mass Exodus" threads, less than 10% hate the new game or don't post.
Like everything in the world that is fair, the information would be accessible to all if posted in the forums. That's how people got good at the game at least for me, blending my own strategy and analysis with shared knowledge posted here.

"Entirely depends on who gets that shared knowledge."
11/21/2016 12:08 AM (edited)
Posted by CoachSpud on 11/20/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
"I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is."

I'd be interested in hearing a good argument for this. Something better than "shooting in the dark," please.
The good argument is that users have not done the work yet to make it less vague. That's why it shouldn't be as vague as it is. Plus, such analysis welcomes in new users with helpful conventional wisdom, as Poncho well said.
11/21/2016 12:09 AM (edited)
Posted by cal_bears on 11/21/2016 12:09:00 AM (view original):
Posted by CoachSpud on 11/20/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
"I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is."

I'd be interested in hearing a good argument for this. Something better than "shooting in the dark," please.
The good argument is that users have not done the work yet to make it less vague. That's why it shouldn't be as vague as it is. Plus, such analysis welcomes in new users with helpful conventional wisdom, as Poncho well said.
Okay, so you agree with poncho that the game needs to be real simple so new users can learn it, implying that new users are so much dumber than new users who started in 2.0. See, I don’t agree with that at all. And I don't even think it's a good argument to tell the truth.
11/21/2016 1:38 AM
Posted by CoachSpud on 11/20/2016 9:42:00 PM (view original):
My point: “I actually think it will be kind of cool if that is so hard to figure out that everybody develops their own theories, everybody develops their own strategies based on their theories. THAT would be the game working as intended.” I’m talking about no one knowing the true formula. There would be no actual knowledge to share.

Someone disagreed, saying, “"I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is." This suggests they favor people being able to know the ratios of AP, HV and CV in 3.0. This in turn suggests degrees of shared knowledge, not always fair. This also implies that everyone would play it the same way if they had this knowledge, that there is a best way to play. My question is, what good reason would there be for preferring that, instead of everyone playing their own unique strategy? Why wouldn’t you want everyone playing their own unique strategy? Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

“New users are going to come into the game and realize there is no way for them to learn how to get better through trial and error.”
Poncho, you seem to be of the school of thought that the game needs to be real simple so new users can learn it, implying that new users are so much dumber than new users who started in 2.0. See, I don’t agree with that at all.

BTW, re.: "Keep in mind mike, we've probably lost roughly 1/3 of the old user base" ... not when you take into account so many guys going from many teams down to 1 or 2 or 3. Arguably, THAT accounts for most of the drop, or at least much of it.
Spud, in what way did me or cal_bears imply that new users are dumber than HD2.0 users? That's a pretty large stretch you just made there. The only thing I suggested is that a new user is going to get frustrated if they don't understand. Hell, current users are frustrated by it and they already understand the core mechanics of the game. Isn't that the purpose of this update, new user retention? Someone said it another post, that he has heard other new users say I don't have time to learn this. That's what actually pushed me out of getting into GD. I didn't have the time or energy to learn a new game.

Under 2.0, people had different theories and strategies. Some people like to shotgun, while others made concentrated efforts. Some people would start right from the beginning, others would wait a cycle or 2, and some would wait until even after signings start. I keep hearing people talk about how easy it was to predict whether or not you would win a recruit, so you would just stay off of him, but all it takes is for that school to get caught in multiple battles eating away at that recruiting budget, and now it's not so predictable if he can win. I keep hearing people talk about how the new game is more like "real life", but then when we talk about how we could see what recruits were considering another school, that we should not be able to see it. The thing is that is what happens in real life. They are typically soft verbals. Maybe they could have added a wrinkle in the game where a soft verbal might be a silent soft verbal who doesn't show up. The point is, I get so tired of people talking about this makes it more like real life, but then they pick and choose what they want to be more like real life to fit their desires. It's a game. We play it, because it's not real life.

As far as the drops, you're probably right that a good portion were just coaches reducing teams, but in the long run, what's the difference? We still end up with a boatload of empty worlds, lost knowledge from vets who helped new guys, and lost revenue for WIS. That still doesn't mean we didn't lose a lot of coaches.
11/21/2016 2:31 AM
Spud: snake, is that you?
11/21/2016 5:12 AM
Posted by cal_bears on 11/21/2016 12:08:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cal_bears on 11/20/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/20/2016 8:00:00 AM (view original):
I personally think the new system will solve the EE problem by itself in a few seasons. With the top schools/conferences no longer guaranteed to get all the top players, there will be far less teams with multiple EE in any given season.

But the root of my question was, based on "That was valuable information, and if you weren't paying attention you were hurt", if you aren't part of the collective, or at least staying in the loop, you're double screwed, right? After all veteran owners have the advantage of experience and shared knowledge only serves to make the playing field more uneven.
No, shared knowledge makes the playing field more even. The point I was making before had to do with coaches not figuring out the math in recruiting that was there to be shared.
I don't believe Attention Points should be anywhere near as vague as it is. Let's make some strides there. There was plenty of variability before in terms of cv vs hv and value of prestige difference, but it wasn't shooting in the dark like this.
Entirely depends on who gets that shared knowledge.

How many people read the forums? I have no idea but I was at this site for 3 months before I even knew there was a forum.

And, judging from the "Mass Exodus" threads, less than 10% hate the new game or don't post.
Like everything in the world that is fair, the information would be accessible to all if posted in the forums. That's how people got good at the game at least for me, blending my own strategy and analysis with shared knowledge posted here.

"Entirely depends on who gets that shared knowledge."
Everyone doesn't read the forums.

I'll say this again(as it's somewhat related). The outcomes of games aren't set in stone. The 543 sometimes beats the 604. I'm not sure, if you keep this in mind, why users believe recruiting should be any less random. As in, sometimes the high beats very high.
11/21/2016 9:04 AM
If you don't read the forums, you are being remiss in your duty as coach. Everyone has access to it.
11/21/2016 1:37 PM
Perhaps but, as I said, I was on the site for 3 months before I knew the forums existed. What's that, 2 HD seasons?
11/21/2016 1:41 PM
I guess my objection, and it's ridiculously mild, is that sharing all info to "crack the code" is sort of like talking the table in cards. Could you imagine who quickly you'd be ran out of a casino if you were telling the others at the blackjack table about the probabilities of the next card?
11/21/2016 1:44 PM
Yeah, but all the good players have read the books and figured out the strategy before they sat down at the table.
11/21/2016 1:47 PM
It seems like a lot of the good players don't intend to play HD.

I guess I feel like it's attempting to get a cheat code. Almost like there's a flaw that one hopes to exploit.
11/21/2016 2:06 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/21/2016 1:44:00 PM (view original):
I guess my objection, and it's ridiculously mild, is that sharing all info to "crack the code" is sort of like talking the table in cards. Could you imagine who quickly you'd be ran out of a casino if you were telling the others at the blackjack table about the probabilities of the next card?
Well, that is true .. but we already know things like the range for each potential category .. the range that letter grades expand to numerically, etc.

To have a feel for the amount of recruiting effort an AP has is not really any more or less than that. In reality, you have no idea how many points APs a guy is going to use on a recruit. I guess it might be fun to postulate the info. They published many battles in the beta info (which is now gone) that was public knowledge. It had attention points, CVs, HVs, team prestige, etc.

So, us publishing a study publicly in the forums should be fine.


11/21/2016 6:30 PM
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