Posted by rednu on 11/23/2016 8:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 11/23/2016 8:17:00 PM (view original):
"But that 667 HAD value -- it told you the starting point of the recruit. It might not have told you how good the player would be, but it told you the EXACT starting position. "


I don't really think it did Rednu....the bad 667 guys (90 WE, STA, DUR with 40-50 cores) never got signed in 2.0 because they weren't D1 players and wouldn't sign D2.

Ath 40
Spd 40
Def 40
Reb 30
Block 30
LP 50
Per 50
Ball 50
Pass 50
WE 90
Sta 90
WE 90

is 670 and a pretty crappy player at every level

Actually it's only 650, but who's counting ;)

But if anything, you just demonstrated what I said. The value tells you the player's EXACT starting position, it might not have told you how good the player would be. The signing status of the player is wholly irrelevant to whether or not values have utility and functionality.

In my defense, I had a lot at happy hour today....

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/23/2016 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Uhh, move on to the next player?

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/23/2016 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Uhh, move on to the next player?

ummm so your statement of looking at level one scouting closely enough is pretty bogus and supports the original statement that level one scouting is useless. Thanks.

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/24/2016 2:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/23/2016 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Uhh, move on to the next player?

ummm so your statement of looking at level one scouting closely enough is pretty bogus and supports the original statement that level one scouting is useless. Thanks.

Um, no. Not even close.

Level one Scouting is.. This guy exists. You found him. Nothing more (IMHO). That is certainly how I use it.

BUT, I am sure if you add up the numbers in a given category, there will be a numerical range for that total that equates to a grade letter. Whether or not that allows you to make any decisions based on the group grades is another question entirely. I don't currently use level 1 Scouting for anything. Others might.

I can see no logical reason why the top 100 should be shown to the D3 schools. It just clogs up their recruiting screen. No D3 team will ever sign one.

Posted by reinsel on 11/24/2016 8:17:00 AM (view original):
I can see no logical reason why the top 100 should be shown to the D3 schools. It just clogs up their recruiting screen. No D3 team will ever sign one.

you can filter by division .. and I would bet a D-III team has signed one in 3.0. They would not have been a REAL top 100 player (or someone else would have signed them) .. but I would think some top 100 guys will slide through the cracks and now D-III can sign them. I would not want to 'take away' the only free information the game give out. Especially since you can filter them out if you don't want to see them.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/24/2016 3:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/24/2016 2:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/23/2016 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Uhh, move on to the next player?

ummm so your statement of looking at level one scouting closely enough is pretty bogus and supports the original statement that level one scouting is useless. Thanks.

Um, no. Not even close.

coachspud is saying that if you are looking for defense and in level 1 the group rating in defense for a player is an F, he currently is not a very good defender no matter what the individual letter grades or final numbers happen to be, which will very likely be very low (there may be an outlier in 1 attribute which would make the other attributes even lower), so you should move on to another player. That's what I would do if defense was my number 1 priority. If you want to know if the player may be passable with high, high ratings in those attributes, spend the money and do additional scouting on the player (which you had to do previously anyway).

Besides that basic information, Level 1 is an introduction to the player. Without Level 1, you will not know the player exists to scout further or to sign.

It is not a difficult concept to understand. Unless you don't want to understand it or just want to be difficult.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/24/2016 8:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by reinsel on 11/24/2016 8:17:00 AM (view original):
I can see no logical reason why the top 100 should be shown to the D3 schools. It just clogs up their recruiting screen. No D3 team will ever sign one.

you can filter by division .. and I would bet a D-III team has signed one in 3.0. They would not have been a REAL top 100 player (or someone else would have signed them) .. but I would think some top 100 guys will slide through the cracks and now D-III can sign them. I would not want to 'take away' the only free information the game give out. Especially since you can filter them out if you don't want to see them.

I'm with you reinsel. I don't like having the top 100 visible at D3 either. It makes it harder to scout D1 guys that are actually attainable (for asst coach search mostly).

Posted by magicdreamer on 11/24/2016 12:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/24/2016 3:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/24/2016 2:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by poncho0091 on 11/23/2016 10:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/23/2016 9:14:00 PM (view original):
With no disrespect intended, actually "the bottom line is, you need to scout people to at least level 2 to get any meaningful information" unless you have looked at level one scouting info closely enough to get meaningful information from it. It is possible for even the imprecise info available at level one to be useful.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

How does level 1 scouting provide useful information if you're looking for a player with good defense, but his block rating is a 1 showing this player as an F rating on defense?

Uhh, move on to the next player?

ummm so your statement of looking at level one scouting closely enough is pretty bogus and supports the original statement that level one scouting is useless. Thanks.

Um, no. Not even close.

coachspud is saying that if you are looking for defense and in level 1 the group rating in defense for a player is an F, he currently is not a very good defender no matter what the individual letter grades or final numbers happen to be, which will very likely be very low (there may be an outlier in 1 attribute which would make the other attributes even lower), so you should move on to another player. That's what I would do if defense was my number 1 priority. If you want to know if the player may be passable with high, high ratings in those attributes, spend the money and do additional scouting on the player (which you had to do previously anyway).

Besides that basic information, Level 1 is an introduction to the player. Without Level 1, you will not know the player exists to scout further or to sign.

It is not a difficult concept to understand. Unless you don't want to understand it or just want to be difficult.

Your entire first sentence is exactly why he is wrong. Lets say I need a pg this period. While it's obvious that rebound and block can be helpful for this guy, it can be said that I don't really care what his block and rebound is. I want to know what his defense is. The problem is they are lumped in a group. So lets say this pg has a rating of 1 in reb, 70 in def, and 1 in blk. Since the 3 are grouped, his level 1 scouted defensive rating is going to be low, F, maybe a D.

So back to the original quote that spud tried to dispute stating that you would need to get to level 2 info to get anything useful is correct. Spud's statement that unless you looked at level 1 scouting info close enough, you would get meaningful info is wrong. So magicdreamer, thanks for playing, but you lost track of what the discussion was to begin with. It's not a difficult concept to understand. Unless you don't want to understand it or just want to be difficult.

"So back to the original quote that spud tried to dispute stating that you would need to get to level 2 info to get anything useful is correct. Spud's statement that unless you looked at level 1 scouting info close enough, you would get meaningful info is wrong. ... It's not a difficult concept to understand."

I know you're trying, poncho, but so far not so good. If one player has a D defense at scouting level one, and another has an F defense, the probabilities are that the first one will still have a better defense at higher levels of scouting, too. There's that word again, probabilities, that so many people have so much difficulty with. If you need a player with good defense, and you have (all at scouting level one) five F's, five D's, five C's, five B's and five A's to choose from, who are you going to scout to higher levels? ________ Easy, isn't it? And that info, level one, is useful, isn't it? And it isn't rocket science, so you should be able to handle it. "It's not a difficult concept to understand" ... for most people. [And by the way, the probabilities are different for different positions, if you look at them closely enough, and that's useful information, too, when you're trying to decide where to spend more scouting money.]

Happy Thanksgiving.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/25/2016 12:22:00 AM (view original):
"So back to the original quote that spud tried to dispute stating that you would need to get to level 2 info to get anything useful is correct. Spud's statement that unless you looked at level 1 scouting info close enough, you would get meaningful info is wrong. ... It's not a difficult concept to understand."

I know you're trying, poncho, but so far not so good. If one player has a D defense at scouting level one, and another has an F defense, the probabilities are that the first one will still have a better defense at higher levels of scouting, too. There's that word again, probabilities, that so many people have so much difficulty with. If you need a player with good defense, and you have (all at scouting level one) five F's, five D's, five C's, five B's and five A's to choose from, who are you going to scout to higher levels? ________ Easy, isn't it? And that info, level one, is useful, isn't it? And it isn't rocket science, so you should be able to handle it. "It's not a difficult concept to understand" ... for most people. [And by the way, the probabilities are different for different positions, if you look at them closely enough, and that's useful information, too, when you're trying to decide where to spend more scouting money.]

Happy Thanksgiving.

Oh so now we get to add in new variables that were not specified. See, that's not how it works spud. I gave you a specific scenario and instead of answering that, you decided to cop out and add in variables that give you the easy answer. I gave you 1 player in a vacuum and asked you to tell me how I'm supposed to get useful information from his defensive rating. The problem is you can't, the information is useless. If I got enough money to scout 1 or 2 players left in cycle 2, this provides no information at all and actually deters me from scouting the guy. Maybe I have 15 guys still at level 1 and they are all rated F, but in reality 5 of them are great defenders who can't rebound or block, then level 1 has provided nothing useful.

By your logic, I should ignore this player and move on, but in reality, I can't do anything with level 1 information unless of course, he's highly rated giving me an obvious answer, but even then, the obvious may just be misleading.

I'll give you scenario 2. The player has a B rating in physical attributes. He has a 99 in durability and a 85 in Stamina. I need a center which means I need some Athleticism, but due to battles I have used up my scouting budget looking for new players. Unfortunately this guy has a 45 Ath and a 50 Spd making him useless. Based on your logic, I should be relying on that B to give me useful information. This is not useful information. If anything it is misleading information. Work with the variables given spud and tell me how I was supposed to get useful information from this B? How was I supposed to have any idea this guy would be a bust? I'm not asking for your pro strategic tips on budgeting, so please spare it.

I stand by the original statement, not made by myself, that to get anything useful, you need to be at level 2. We seem to want to pick and choose what should be or should not be like real life. If I have discovered a player, and there is enough information to rate him as physically gifted (A or B rating) then I expect to be able to ask my scout to say what makes him believe the player is physically gifted, and he should be able to say: He's fast, or he has great endurance, or he can play through injuries. If I'm told a guy can defend, I expect him to be a good defender, not just be able to rebound. If my scout can't even justify his bare basic rating, then he is garbage. If we're going to make the argument that level 1 is just finding the player, then lets be real have all scouting actions just take us to level 2, or at the very least allow level 1 to be somewhat useful. This is more realistic as my scout at level 2 has now said, yea, this kid is fast. Level 3- yea he's fast and can grow. Level 4 - This is how fast he is exactly. Not level 1 - kid is physically gifted, but I'm not really sure why or I heard some kid's name and we should scout him, but I'm not really sure why.

Before, late in recruiting; you could look at anyone not signed in your projected Division, pick out a couple of attributes you need for the position, find high enough ratings and it didn't matter about potential because they would be passable with the starting rating. Now you can't do that and that why you don't think Level 1 ratings are useful even though they are. If you need to still sign players late and have used up your entire scouting budget, you are correct, you can't make an informed choice. Level 1 information at the beginning of recruiting - useful tool on who to look at closer, Level 1 information with very little or no scouting money left and you still need to sign players - not so much. The game will no longer save you at the end of recruiting to blindly sign players with known specific attributes if you do not first spend your scouting budget to scout them up enough. You need to use your scouting budget wisely and save some money for late scouting. Those are the parameters of the game. And there are different amounts of information you get at each level of scouting that differs from real life because it is a game.

You can get useful information at Level 1 just not at the end of late recruiting. This has been said in this thread multiple times, Level 1 is an introduction to the player with very basic information. It is an introduction of sorts, without it you don't know that player exists. If you don't know he exists, you can't sign him. Nobody sees all recruits anymore. The basic information can be useful even if you, or others, don't see it. An F rating virtually guarantees that the player sucks in all attributes in that category. If a player is rated F in defensive attributes that information is useful to me, spud and anyone else paying attention because we know damn well that player is not going to have a 60 for defense. I will repeat this for you: he will not have a 60 for defense. And for the 1 player that might be that outlier and does in the player pool I scouted, I am not spending additional money trying to find the needle in the haystack that might not even exist in that pool of players. At least for me, it is not worth trying to find the 1 or 2 players that have 1's in all categories except for the one I am hoping he would excel in the group so I say to him nice to meet you and move on. For players that show some promise, I will scout them to higher levels. If you feel differently and want to find the outliers, then you are correct, you need to get to Level 2. That doesn't mean the information in Level 1 isn't useful, just not as useful as you want it to be. No, I would never sign anyone just using Level 1, but I can eliminate players using information from Level 1.

If you want more information on every player, spend the money and do the additional scouting on everybody from the start. Maybe for you and others, you need everybody scouted at Level 2 because you are afraid you will miss that 1 or 2 players while others can make some initial decisions about players with Level 1 information. If you need Level 2 on everybody, there are multiple ways to get to at least level 2 from the start - use the scouting service, hold your own camp. You just are not going to get any information for free anymore so you need to save some scouting budget for later. However, Everybody, including DIII, has a bigger scouting budget to find and to get to know the players. In DIII, you are going to have a much smaller pool of players to work with then before (and for you an even smaller pool of players). If you run out of funds in your scouting budget and everybody's rated the same in the group attribute, then you do have to guess or throw a dart. You need to save some scouting budget for late signings to get the additional information you need if your only choices left are at Level 1 and they are very similar. But, you also have an opportunity to possibly sign an ignored projected DI player in DIII, so you have that tradeoff.

OK .. first thing we would need to know 100 % BEFORE we can say it is totally worthless is the actual numerical values involved.

We would also need to do a detailed analysis of the numbers for recruit generation with respec to BLK and REB numbers for guards. You MIGHT then be able to glean something about guards for the defense grouping. But maybe not.

I will say that for the PF/C positions, those numbers are a fair indicator of Defense for the position and it could be helpful.

I would also think that in general terms, you COULD use the Offensive grouping in helping you narrow down a good scoring SG and/or SF. At least it would be better than nothing.

But, personally, unless I had no other option (and that is not normally the case), I don't think I would ever look at level 1 scouting. I may miss some very good international or distance players that way.

No, I would personally want get a player to level 2 before I made any decisions.