Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):
Those specific words, maybe. But I've seen a lot more say they're crying because they lost their advantages. BTW, Elon is in D1. Capped divisions doesn't really apply. And that's sort of my gripe.

Funny though, some of the people saying "You know the risk of recruiting the top players at a lower prestige school" are also griping about EEs. Seems that's also a risk of recruiting top players. They might just leave early. Hmmmmmmm........

Ah my bad, I misunderstood. Thought you were talking about your D3 team when I mentioned capped divisions.

But on to Elon. Thems the breaks I say. That's the whole point of moving up!! Why else would you want to get to UK or MSU or Duke. You get the prestige benefit. That's the motivation to work your way up. That's the reward for putting in the time and effort for the rebuild.

This is basically what snafu is saying. Put in your dues. Actually EARN the right to move into a highly competitive upper echelon portion of D1 (because ya know, Duke needs to battle UNC and UK for recruits too).

Elon CAN win against UK. It's not impossible. Yes, they have an advantage but it's not insurmountable. You need to be more selective and strategic with your decisions to battle at low D1.

I'm fine with the whole "earn your way", "pay your dues", etc, etc, mantra. I'm gonna have it tatted on my forward so I can stop saying "I'm fine with the whole "earn your way", "pay your dues", etc, etc, mantra" over and over again.

Problem is, there are only so many Dukes and UKs. Which is fine too. However, owners who have been around forever have those teams because they put in the time and earned them. And they had the advantages that went with those teams. And they scream "REALISM!!!!" at every step. So let's just address realism. How many NCAA coaches were at 1 school for say 60 seasons? How does that compare to HD? So you take the Elon and fight the fight. How long will you do it? How long with someone else do it? Until you get tired of doing it is the answer. snafu said a year and half before he could compete. That's a pretty long time for an internet game. Maybe there are many like him. Or, since HD membership has been on the down for years, probably not.

Now, because I like "Thems the breaks I say" so much, I want to talk about it. You recruit this awesome player. You make a good run. He declares early. Oopsie, Thems the breaks I say. So I guess I'll never, ever read another gripe about EE. Damn, I'm glad that's over. It was becoming as tiresome as "This sucks. I'm gone!!!" posts.

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 3:39:00 PM (view original):
It's not what "we" want. It's what WifS can market.

Again, Duke is not knocking down CSNU. User A is knocking down User B. It's the user that is getting beat by a built-in advantage.

"Hi, join our game. All the really good teams were taken 10 years ago. But, if you work really hard, you can get in their division and lose all recruits to them and, as a bonus, get beaten by 50 on the reg. It will be great fun!!! Please hand over your money!!!!"

Let's just get rid of prestige. and the team success preference. Everyone gets to start fresh each season.

I'm fine with prestige being a factor. I just don't think it should be THE factor.

It's not right to allow a user, say a C- prestige school, to dump tons of resources into a player only to have the A+ school swoop in, drop 40 AP, a HC, a CV and take the player.

It's not school C- getting dicked, it's the friggin' user. How in the hell can I make this any clearer? Are my posts translating to Arabic? Because I see English.

Yeah, and no one said that an A+ school should need to put in almost zero effort to beat another D1 school. To beat a D3 school, yes, it only needs to be minimal effort in my opinion.

And maybe it's not that people don't understand you, it's that your opinion isn't the only one out there so it's quite possible people don't agree with you.

People who don't agree with me are wrong. So there's that.

I'm almost positive Mr.Sensing said almost exactly what you said no one said. That's why I commented.

I did say that, and I stand by it. What's the primary goal of the game -- realism, or user retention? If it's user retention, why have EEs at all? They're just ******* off users -- at least the way the game deals with them right now. I think (and presumably, so does WIS) that realism should be the primary goal -- that's been the stated reason for many, many changes over the years. In real life, a Kentucky/Duke/UNC blows a D+ prestige team immediately out of the water on a recruit -- in this game, it should be the same IMO. Maybe D+ teams (i.e., Mike's User A) shouldn't blow recruiting money on 5-stars. If you're in DI, you should probably have played the game enough to know there's a high risk you get taken out.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

And, for the record, not ONCE have I stated "Everything has to be equal". NOT ONCE. If you can find, quote it.

But the scales do not have to be tilted heavily in one direction. This isn't the real world. It's a game on the internet.

Posted by johnsensing on 12/2/2016 6:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 3:39:00 PM (view original):
It's not what "we" want. It's what WifS can market.

Again, Duke is not knocking down CSNU. User A is knocking down User B. It's the user that is getting beat by a built-in advantage.

"Hi, join our game. All the really good teams were taken 10 years ago. But, if you work really hard, you can get in their division and lose all recruits to them and, as a bonus, get beaten by 50 on the reg. It will be great fun!!! Please hand over your money!!!!"

Let's just get rid of prestige. and the team success preference. Everyone gets to start fresh each season.

I'm fine with prestige being a factor. I just don't think it should be THE factor.

It's not right to allow a user, say a C- prestige school, to dump tons of resources into a player only to have the A+ school swoop in, drop 40 AP, a HC, a CV and take the player.

It's not school C- getting dicked, it's the friggin' user. How in the hell can I make this any clearer? Are my posts translating to Arabic? Because I see English.

Yeah, and no one said that an A+ school should need to put in almost zero effort to beat another D1 school. To beat a D3 school, yes, it only needs to be minimal effort in my opinion.

And maybe it's not that people don't understand you, it's that your opinion isn't the only one out there so it's quite possible people don't agree with you.

People who don't agree with me are wrong. So there's that.

I'm almost positive Mr.Sensing said almost exactly what you said no one said. That's why I commented.

I did say that, and I stand by it. What's the primary goal of the game -- realism, or user retention? If it's user retention, why have EEs at all? They're just ******* off users -- at least the way the game deals with them right now. I think (and presumably, so does WIS) that realism should be the primary goal -- that's been the stated reason for many, many changes over the years. In real life, a Kentucky/Duke/UNC blows a D+ prestige team immediately out of the water on a recruit -- in this game, it should be the same IMO. Maybe D+ teams (i.e., Mike's User A) shouldn't blow recruiting money on 5-stars. If you're in DI, you should probably have played the game enough to know there's a high risk you get taken out.

The primary goal needs to be something in between.

I'll assume you haven't read many of my posts. I'll try to be brief because I hate long post.

KY/Duke/UNC does blow Elon out of the water when they approach a recruit. But what some are suggesting, and I believe you are, is that KY/Duke/UNC can completely ignore a recruit until the last cycle or two and still blow Elon out of the water. That's not realism. Those schools would have made contact with said recruit somewhere along the line. I'd have no real problem is KY was very low all thru the process. But, in order to do that, they would have had to throw an attention point or 2 at him earlier. Then, when they jump in with both feet, the pendulum swings. I think you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, KY should be able to never contact the guy, throw a couple(or a lot) of AP at him on the next to last cycle and win him. That's my problem. Elon is not Elon. Elon is a paying customer. This game needs paying customers.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for me. My "goals" in this game is not on par with the goals of the elite. But, for someone, it is. And they need a fighting chance. Not now. But not in 2025 either. There has to be a middle ground.

Posted by johnsensing on 12/2/2016 6:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 3:39:00 PM (view original):
It's not what "we" want. It's what WifS can market.

Again, Duke is not knocking down CSNU. User A is knocking down User B. It's the user that is getting beat by a built-in advantage.

"Hi, join our game. All the really good teams were taken 10 years ago. But, if you work really hard, you can get in their division and lose all recruits to them and, as a bonus, get beaten by 50 on the reg. It will be great fun!!! Please hand over your money!!!!"

Let's just get rid of prestige. and the team success preference. Everyone gets to start fresh each season.

I'm fine with prestige being a factor. I just don't think it should be THE factor.

It's not right to allow a user, say a C- prestige school, to dump tons of resources into a player only to have the A+ school swoop in, drop 40 AP, a HC, a CV and take the player.

It's not school C- getting dicked, it's the friggin' user. How in the hell can I make this any clearer? Are my posts translating to Arabic? Because I see English.

Yeah, and no one said that an A+ school should need to put in almost zero effort to beat another D1 school. To beat a D3 school, yes, it only needs to be minimal effort in my opinion.

And maybe it's not that people don't understand you, it's that your opinion isn't the only one out there so it's quite possible people don't agree with you.

People who don't agree with me are wrong. So there's that.

I'm almost positive Mr.Sensing said almost exactly what you said no one said. That's why I commented.

I did say that, and I stand by it. What's the primary goal of the game -- realism, or user retention? If it's user retention, why have EEs at all? They're just ******* off users -- at least the way the game deals with them right now. I think (and presumably, so does WIS) that realism should be the primary goal -- that's been the stated reason for many, many changes over the years. In real life, a Kentucky/Duke/UNC blows a D+ prestige team immediately out of the water on a recruit -- in this game, it should be the same IMO. Maybe D+ teams (i.e., Mike's User A) shouldn't blow recruiting money on 5-stars. If you're in DI, you should probably have played the game enough to know there's a high risk you get taken out.

Meh. Fox runs a business. Their primary goal is to make money and to do so, user retention is the key. So they try to build a game a realistic as possible that doesn't become an oligopoly. Your game doesn't make them money in the long run. It's a failing business model as seems to be proven by the user base that steadily declined over the years.

My dog attacked a possum last night. Sorry, dude. I was not part of that.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

hahaha

You have NO idea what the dwindling population of HD suggests. None.

You are basing this upon what your own experience was like 10 years ago. That's you. That's not the rest of the coaches out there. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?

The fact that most coaches play 1-2 seasons at D3 and then quit suggests you are not right since they don't even get to D1 and then lose to UK in a lopsided recruiting battle.

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

hahaha

You have NO idea what the dwindling population of HD suggests. None.

You are basing this upon what your own experience was like 10 years ago. That's you. That's not the rest of the coaches out there. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?

The fact that most coaches play 1-2 seasons at D3 and then quit suggests you are not right since they don't even get to D1 and then lose to UK in a lopsided recruiting battle.

Sure I do. If you don't, then, well, I question your intelligence.

People are NOT interested in playing. Do you disagree?

I suspect we'll find that low D1 and mid-major D1 are much more playable in 3.0. There will be a chance to get some 2nd tier players that can get them past the 1st round of the national tournament on occasion. Coaches will be better able to build VCU, Butler, and Gonzaga-like teams from similar places now, without gaming the system. You can compete from there, and for the most part, I think that's all most coaches want and expect.

Realism? pfft. that is comical.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

hahaha

You have NO idea what the dwindling population of HD suggests. None.

You are basing this upon what your own experience was like 10 years ago. That's you. That's not the rest of the coaches out there. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?

The fact that most coaches play 1-2 seasons at D3 and then quit suggests you are not right since they don't even get to D1 and then lose to UK in a lopsided recruiting battle.

Sure I do. If you don't, then, well, I question your intelligence.

People are NOT interested in playing. Do you disagree?

uh huh.

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

hahaha

You have NO idea what the dwindling population of HD suggests. None.

You are basing this upon what your own experience was like 10 years ago. That's you. That's not the rest of the coaches out there. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?

The fact that most coaches play 1-2 seasons at D3 and then quit suggests you are not right since they don't even get to D1 and then lose to UK in a lopsided recruiting battle.

I'm not concerned about the users that try a season of free HD and quit, and Fox probably shouldn't be, either. This is a niche market they're trying to reach. They have to assume that a lot of people either aren't going to get it, or aren't going to have time to learn it. And the mobile-friendlier design of 3.0 may increase that retention at that early spot a little. I'm more concerned about keeping the players like mike - who *should* be into a sports management simulation.

And anyway, I think we can assume at least *some* of those early quitters figured out pretty early that it was actually going to be real life years before they would get a sniff at real March Madness, and that does play into this discussion as well.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2016 7:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 12/2/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by highcountry on 12/2/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2016 5:33:00 PM (view original):
A way to retain users is what WifS needs. I'm at D3 and recruiting doesn't bother me. But I guarantee the user at Elon dropping big resources on a fellow who'll be SG3 at KY isn't very happy when KY shows and says "Hi, I'm Kentucky. We lost out on options 1-8. You're 9th on our list" isn't exactly enamored with the game.

What will happen is the coach at Elon will learn the type of player that he can reasonably expect to recruit and still win. Or he will learn a better strategy for getting a higher ranked player. He will learn a lesson from a recruiting loss and move on.

Every coach at a power conference team has successfully navigated through the lower rungs of D1, figuring out how to recruit and win. It's not impossible and we don't need to have everything be equal across the board.

Or they quit.

The dwindling population of HD suggests that I'm right.

hahaha

You have NO idea what the dwindling population of HD suggests. None.

You are basing this upon what your own experience was like 10 years ago. That's you. That's not the rest of the coaches out there. Unless you have some data that you'd like to share?

The fact that most coaches play 1-2 seasons at D3 and then quit suggests you are not right since they don't even get to D1 and then lose to UK in a lopsided recruiting battle.

I'm not concerned about the users that try a season of free HD and quit, and Fox probably shouldn't be, either. This is a niche market they're trying to reach. They have to assume that a lot of people either aren't going to get it, or aren't going to have time to learn it. And the mobile-friendlier design of 3.0 may increase that retention at that early spot a little. I'm more concerned about keeping the players like mike - who *should* be into a sports management simulation.

And anyway, I think we can assume at least *some* of those early quitters figured out pretty early that it was actually going to be real life years before they would get a sniff at real March Madness, and that does play into this discussion as well.

All I know is, I have gotten a lot of friends to try out HD. About 8 of them only played 1-3 seasons. Obviously I asked them why they didn't want to play anymore. None them were concerned about how long it'd take to get to D1 or how difficult it would be. All of them were just basically bored during the season.

3 of my other friends are still playing and are over 10 seasons. They're really in to it and enjoy the game for what it is. They're all at D3 and have no plans on moving up. None of them go on the message boards so they don't even know if it's easy or difficult to do so. They just have no interest in it.