And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

And you are aware that the years Buhner was batting behind Martinez he slugged over .500, right?

All balls are not created equally. You badlucking here. No, if it bounces 3 feet in front of the plate, he's not swinging. But he doesn't have to wait for one in his sweet spot. Because we know Buhner isn't and, unless the pitcher screws up, Buhner's holey-*** swing never gets one in the sweet spot.

I'm seriously not chasing you dipshits down this rabbit hole. Have a great day.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/9/2016 2:40:00 PM (view original):
And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

Is your argument that Edgar never took a called strike, maybe even two called strikes, in any of his 8,674 career plate appearances?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/9/2016 2:40:00 PM (view original):
And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

Is your argument that Edgar never took a called strike, maybe even two called strikes, in any of his 8,674 career plate appearances?

Who gives a ****? Literally every player in the Hall of Fame took a called third strike.

What does that have to do with whether or not Martinez belongs?

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/9/2016 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Let's ask them if they'd rather have Martinez swinging the bat or Jay Buhner.

Let's ask them if they'd rather have 2 guys on base instead of 1.

The point is, unless you go back and analyze every AB Edgar took, you can't say which side is right. I'm sure many times, he walked on a pitch that he really didn't have a shot of putting in play, and I have no doubt he took some called third strikes. If you're going to go down that slippery slope with Edgar, than we need to analyze the stats of everyone we vote into the HOF. Frank Thomas walked a lot - I'm sure the team would have been better off if he put some of those close pitches in play.

It's a stupid argument to make when judging someone's career. "Barry Bonds took a shitload of borderline pitches for balls. He hit over 700 homers - dude could've hit over 800 if he'd just swung the bat!"

Posted by Jtpsops on 12/9/2016 3:06:00 PM (view original):
The point is, unless you go back and analyze every AB Edgar took, you can't say which side is right. I'm sure many times, he walked on a pitch that he really didn't have a shot of putting in play, and I have no doubt he took some called third strikes. If you're going to go down that slippery slope with Edgar, than we need to analyze the stats of everyone we vote into the HOF. Frank Thomas walked a lot - I'm sure the team would have been better off if he put some of those close pitches in play.

It's a stupid argument to make when judging someone's career. "Barry Bonds took a shitload of borderline pitches for balls. He hit over 700 homers - dude could've hit over 800 if he'd just swung the bat!"

unless you go back and analyze every AB Edgar took, you can't say which side is right

We don't have to go back and analyze every at bat. Martinez's walk and K rates are perfectly normal for a great hitter. There's no reason to believe that he was somehow abdicating his responsibilities.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/9/2016 3:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/9/2016 2:40:00 PM (view original):
And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

Is your argument that Edgar never took a called strike, maybe even two called strikes, in any of his 8,674 career plate appearances?

Who gives a ****? Literally every player in the Hall of Fame took a called third strike.

What does that have to do with whether or not Martinez belongs?

You're so goddamned narrow minded that it's funny. In a sad and pathetic kind of way.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/9/2016 3:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/9/2016 2:40:00 PM (view original):
And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

Is your argument that Edgar never took a called strike, maybe even two called strikes, in any of his 8,674 career plate appearances?

Who gives a ****? Literally every player in the Hall of Fame took a called third strike.

What does that have to do with whether or not Martinez belongs?

You're so goddamned narrow minded that it's funny. In a sad and pathetic kind of way.

Do you think Martinez should have walked less?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/9/2016 3:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/9/2016 2:40:00 PM (view original):
And we're going to tell them Martinez has to swing at balls to avoid walking even if they don't want him to throw a strike?

Is your argument that Edgar never took a called strike, maybe even two called strikes, in any of his 8,674 career plate appearances?

Who gives a ****? Literally every player in the Hall of Fame took a called third strike.

What does that have to do with whether or not Martinez belongs?

You're so goddamned narrow minded that it's funny. In a sad and pathetic kind of way.

Now you're the one making yourself look foolish by defending a stupid position for Mike. If you'll notice, even he isn't wasting time defending it.

Saying "This guy was a great hitter, but given where he hit in the order, he should've walked less and swung the bat more" is pretty narrow minded in its own right. Either someone had a HOF career or they didn't - numbers don't lose or gain weight based on where someone hit in the batting order.

This has nothing to do with Mike. It really doesn't even have anything to do with Edgar Martinez. It has everything to do with PSBL's narrow view that all situations are the same, and that a walk is always better than swinging the bat.

My point is there are going to be times when you want your best hitter being a bit more aggressive in trying to put the ball in play, rather than passively accepting a walk. Dahs seems to think this means flailing at pitches outside the strike zone. He's wrong (big surprise!). It means not necessarily taking pitches in the zone that are not "your pitch", particularly in situations when base hits have noticeably more value than a walk, i.e. there are runners on base.

PSBL stubbornly refuses to admit that such situations exist. He continues to insist that "Hey, if he walks, that's great!!!" Because I don't think he understands that baseball is more than just numbers on a stat sheet or a probability chart. It's played on a field with real people, and games usually have a heartbeat and a pulse beyond what shows up in the box score the next day.

Fair points, but I'm merely talking about career evaluation. When looking at his career numbers, those points aren't really relevant.

It's no different than BL foolishly talking about what kind of outs are "better" when trying to evaluate a player's season after the fact. Once the season is over, it no longer matters how they were made.

AN OUT IS AN OUT

Posted by tecwrg on 12/9/2016 6:41:00 PM (view original):
This has nothing to do with Mike. It really doesn't even have anything to do with Edgar Martinez. It has everything to do with PSBL's narrow view that all situations are the same, and that a walk is always better than swinging the bat.

My point is there are going to be times when you want your best hitter being a bit more aggressive in trying to put the ball in play, rather than passively accepting a walk. Dahs seems to think this means flailing at pitches outside the strike zone. He's wrong (big surprise!). It means not necessarily taking pitches in the zone that are not "your pitch", particularly in situations when base hits have noticeably more value than a walk, i.e. there are runners on base.

PSBL stubbornly refuses to admit that such situations exist. He continues to insist that "Hey, if he walks, that's great!!!" Because I don't think he understands that baseball is more than just numbers on a stat sheet or a probability chart. It's played on a field with real people, and games usually have a heartbeat and a pulse beyond what shows up in the box score the next day.

Um...looks like you're the one trying to rehash the same argument over and over and over again.

No one has ever argued that all situations are all the same. That's a strawman that you invented in your own mind when I said that an out is an out.