Posted by MikeT23 on 1/5/2017 9:44:00 AM (view original):
I never took Andro but creatine worked. In '98 I was a 35 y/o softball player. I made stupid muscle/strength gains on creatine over the next couple of months. If Bud put one ounce of research into creatine, he'd know people, especially elite level athletes, could make huge gains using it. When something is legal, it's legal. Coca-cola had cocaine in it back in the day. There was no reason for Bud to go on a PED witchhunt because a big player had creatine in full view in his locker.

Now, if you want to say "He SHOULD have dug deeper", you'd have an argument. I'd say "Why? Baseball was recovering and it's biggest players were using legal supplements. There was no reason to go on a witch hunt." But you could easily counter "Something didn't seem right" and we'd go back and forth.

So you argument shouldn't be "he knew" or "he ignored", it should be "he didn't do his job to the full extent."

That said, I have no issue with PED so I know my viewpoint is a bit different.

Wait, why would Bud need to research creatine?

I take creatine every day. It helps. My one and three rep maxes are definitely higher since I started taking it. But it isn't magic. The gains you make on creatine are nowhere near the gains you make on testosterone or a prohormone like andro.

Well, that's a pretty big difference between "he allowed PED" and "knew of usage" you stated earlier.

Without question, players were getting bigger/stronger in the 90s. But if you look at the players in the 70s, even the pre-roid 80s was a big jump. I know, in high school, we were told NOT to lift weights because it would screw up our throwing/hitting due to less flexibility. That was late 70s. Somewhere along the line, it was decided that lifting was OK and players began to bulk up in the 80s. The progression looked natural. Until players began gaining 30 lbs of muscle in the off-season. Perhaps MLB should have said "Hey, hold on a sec. Some of these fellas look like they could have played O-Line for the Steelers in the 70s. We need to check into this." Or, as baseball was rolling along, making money, they could say "Players in the 80s were bigger than those in the 70s so why shouldn't the 90s be bigger than the 80s?"

"During the middle of the HR race in '98 McGwire did a TV interview in front of his locker with containers of creatine & andro on the shelf behind him. Should have sent red flags thru the baseball community. The NFL had already been through steroid issues. Sports casters at the time noted it, mentioned it. Yet, MLB/Selig did not push it. Could have and should have stopped it then."

I have no doubt Selig knew about the prevalence of PEDs in baseball, but I always laugh when people use the McGwire-Andro example. He was taking something that was perfectly within the rules of Major League Baseball at the time. You cannot be labeled a cheater for doing something LEGAL. It's like body armour - I hate it, but it's allowed. If it was banned next year, I couldn't say "Bob Smith cheated!! He hit a ton of homers in the 2000s by using body armour to shrink his strike zone! Body armour is illegal!!"

Legal is legal, whether you agree with it or not.

Selig being in the Hall of Fame makes the whole thing a joke. Why not just put everyone in?

Posted by bad_luck on 1/5/2017 11:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/5/2017 9:44:00 AM (view original):
I never took Andro but creatine worked. In '98 I was a 35 y/o softball player. I made stupid muscle/strength gains on creatine over the next couple of months. If Bud put one ounce of research into creatine, he'd know people, especially elite level athletes, could make huge gains using it. When something is legal, it's legal. Coca-cola had cocaine in it back in the day. There was no reason for Bud to go on a PED witchhunt because a big player had creatine in full view in his locker.

Now, if you want to say "He SHOULD have dug deeper", you'd have an argument. I'd say "Why? Baseball was recovering and it's biggest players were using legal supplements. There was no reason to go on a witch hunt." But you could easily counter "Something didn't seem right" and we'd go back and forth.

So you argument shouldn't be "he knew" or "he ignored", it should be "he didn't do his job to the full extent."

That said, I have no issue with PED so I know my viewpoint is a bit different.

Wait, why would Bud need to research creatine?

I take creatine every day. It helps. My one and three rep maxes are definitely higher since I started taking it. But it isn't magic. The gains you make on creatine are nowhere near the gains you make on testosterone or a prohormone like andro.

Why? Players were much bigger than in the past. Maybe it would be a good idea to find out why. One of the biggest has a bucket of creatine in his locker. A simple google of "What does creatine do?" would help explain why players are much bigger than in the past.

Now, against my better judgement, I'll try to hold a civil exchange on supplements.

I took creatine for awhile. 6 months, maybe a year. I felt bloated and I cramped a lot playing ball. Have you had that experience?
I take Sytrophin and AntlerX now(for several years). No side effects and I know Sytrophin works(bone spurs in my neck that rub the nerve and cause numbness in my arm when I don't take it). I'm almost certain AntlerX works as I'm able to go heavy twice a week in a muscle group. I wasn't able to do that for years so my workouts were structured around heavy/light.

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/5/2017 11:33:00 AM (view original):
"During the middle of the HR race in '98 McGwire did a TV interview in front of his locker with containers of creatine & andro on the shelf behind him. Should have sent red flags thru the baseball community. The NFL had already been through steroid issues. Sports casters at the time noted it, mentioned it. Yet, MLB/Selig did not push it. Could have and should have stopped it then."

I have no doubt Selig knew about the prevalence of PEDs in baseball, but I always laugh when people use the McGwire-Andro example. He was taking something that was perfectly within the rules of Major League Baseball at the time. You cannot be labeled a cheater for doing something LEGAL. It's like body armour - I hate it, but it's allowed. If it was banned next year, I couldn't say "Bob Smith cheated!! He hit a ton of homers in the 2000s by using body armour to shrink his strike zone! Body armour is illegal!!"

Legal is legal, whether you agree with it or not.

I am not saying that at the time of that interview McGwire was cheating. Those supplements were legal for ballplayers to use. What I am saying is that MLB should have realized the significance of the andro and to a lesser extent the creatine. Red flags and all kinds of alarms should have (and maybe did) alerted MLB of the road that they were starting to go down. The NFL had already had steroid issues. Yet MLB failed, allowing this snowball to pickup speed rolling down the hill out of control. They had a chance to "nip it in the bud". I believe the Selig/MLB made a choice not to pursue the supplement issue since baseball desperately needed the HR race to boost fan support.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/5/2017 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/5/2017 11:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/5/2017 9:44:00 AM (view original):
I never took Andro but creatine worked. In '98 I was a 35 y/o softball player. I made stupid muscle/strength gains on creatine over the next couple of months. If Bud put one ounce of research into creatine, he'd know people, especially elite level athletes, could make huge gains using it. When something is legal, it's legal. Coca-cola had cocaine in it back in the day. There was no reason for Bud to go on a PED witchhunt because a big player had creatine in full view in his locker.

Now, if you want to say "He SHOULD have dug deeper", you'd have an argument. I'd say "Why? Baseball was recovering and it's biggest players were using legal supplements. There was no reason to go on a witch hunt." But you could easily counter "Something didn't seem right" and we'd go back and forth.

So you argument shouldn't be "he knew" or "he ignored", it should be "he didn't do his job to the full extent."

That said, I have no issue with PED so I know my viewpoint is a bit different.

Wait, why would Bud need to research creatine?

I take creatine every day. It helps. My one and three rep maxes are definitely higher since I started taking it. But it isn't magic. The gains you make on creatine are nowhere near the gains you make on testosterone or a prohormone like andro.

Why? Players were much bigger than in the past. Maybe it would be a good idea to find out why. One of the biggest has a bucket of creatine in his locker. A simple google of "What does creatine do?" would help explain why players are much bigger than in the past.

Now, against my better judgement, I'll try to hold a civil exchange on supplements.

I took creatine for awhile. 6 months, maybe a year. I felt bloated and I cramped a lot playing ball. Have you had that experience?
I take Sytrophin and AntlerX now(for several years). No side effects and I know Sytrophin works(bone spurs in my neck that rub the nerve and cause numbness in my arm when I don't take it). I'm almost certain AntlerX works as I'm able to go heavy twice a week in a muscle group. I wasn't able to do that for years so my workouts were structured around heavy/light.

I haven't really had any negative side effects of creatine. I've been on it for about a year. I have to remember to drink a ton of water...when I forget it seems like dehydration sets in faster than before.

It definitely works. For example, if I have a heavy squat day, I rest less between sets and can come back and deadlift two days later. I ran out in June and forgot to reorder for a couple weeks. It might have been in my head, but I felt like my lifts suffered. Not so much the higher rep/lower intensity days (for example 5x8 at 65%), those were the same, but when I had to 3X3 at 95%, the weight was crushing. And recovery was a *****.

I'm a firm believer in the stuff. It's the most studied legal supplement available, it's cheap (it's not like BIG CREATINE is leading a con to make millions), and it's easy to take--you don't have to worry about loading or cycling or timing (the effect isn't acute, so you don't have to take it right before or right after a workout). I throw a teaspoon in my coffee every morning and I'm good to go.

I thought I read an article back in the day that they discovered Creatine led to the retention of a lot of water weight, thus leading to bigger bulk, but not really greater strength. Any truth to that?

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/5/2017 5:07:00 PM (view original):
I thought I read an article back in the day that they discovered Creatine led to the retention of a lot of water weight, thus leading to bigger bulk, but not really greater strength. Any truth to that?

You retain a little water, 3 or 4 pounds spread out over your entire body, but there have been plenty of studies that show the strength benefits are real.

Yeah, forgot about the dehydration. I retain water like a pregnant woman and I sweat like a whore in church when I play ball. I probably never found the "sweet spot" with hydration which is why I felt bloated a lot but still cramped.

No idea if Sytrophin would do much for you at your age but consider giving AntlerX a shot. It's only about $25 a month. They keep screwing around with the flavor, last 6er I bought tasted like crap, but I think it works. If nothing else, it works in my head.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/5/2017 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, forgot about the dehydration. I retain water like a pregnant woman and I sweat like a whore in church when I play ball. I probably never found the "sweet spot" with hydration which is why I felt bloated a lot but still cramped.

No idea if Sytrophin would do much for you at your age but consider giving AntlerX a shot. It's only about $25 a month. They keep screwing around with the flavor, last 6er I bought tasted like crap, but I think it works. If nothing else, it works in my head.

I usually try to stay away from name-brand, proprietary-formula stuff but I'll check it out. My buddy's been trying to get me to me to start on beta-alanine and BCAAs but, honestly, I should probably tighten up my diet before I go for more supplements.

Given the list of admitted users of the supplements, I'd say side effects include a lack of self-awareness, argumentative behavior, and obsessive-compulsive posting on fake sports sites.

Hmmmmmm......I can't tell for sure but I think you just took a shot at badluck.

I don't know. I wouldn't say I'm argumentative. He's probably talking about tec.

And what is this "self-awareness" phase people are using lately? Never heard it before.

so, you're arguing about being argumentative?