As long as Bagwell and Raines make it in, I'll be happy.
If you're gonna have Mariano in there for most saves, you might as well have the other 600 save guy and the best save % of all time in Hoffman. And, as an Astros fan, I'd like to see Billy Wagner in there, but really, not the biggest fan of RPs in the Hall, would like to see Edgar in there tho.

Predictions: Bagpipes, Raines, and Pudge make it in. Hoffman, Clemens, Bonds, and Edgar Martinez miss it. Anyone else relevant I'm missing?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2016 2:57:00 PM (view original):
While I'd like to say what follows will end any future HOF discussions between us, it won't. Nonetheless....

You always say "Based on players already in..."
I usually respond, if I bother, "Past mistakes don't impress me. I'm not making more based on that...."

I don't really care who is already in. Some were obvious mistakes, some I simply don't think are HOFers, some I'm sure are HOFers. But that doesn't matter. The standard for HOF for someone else is not my standard.

Raines and Bagwell were fantastic players. Raines in particular. But, if I start comparing him to other LF who I think are HOF-worthy, he's not gonna cut it. Bagwell, in another era, strolls into the HOF as a 1B. Unfortunately, he played in an era with PED users who did it better than him. He's not even close.

If I was inclined to start inducting 1 inning closers, I'd start with Rivera and then probably Wagner. Hoffman would deserve "serious consideration" but he falls just short. I think, soon enough, we'll have plenty of 1 inning RP to choose from.

I'm not comparing Raines and Bagwell to past mistakes. I'm fairly certain I've said that six thousand times already.

No one is saying that Raines and Bagwell belong only because they are better than Rice and Cepeda. I'm saying when you look at the members of the hall at their position as a whole, those two clearly belong.

Raines compares very well to hall of hame corner outfielders. He was roughly as valuable as Tony Gwynn. Of the 20 or so LF in the hall, he's better than all but about 6 of them.

Bagwell is arguably a top 30 or 40 hitter of all time. I don't see how your hall could be so small that the 40th best hitter of all time doesn't deserve a spot.

Your ability to pick a snippet of a post out and use it to argue is quite the talent. It requires that you ignore all else as if no one else can see it.

"I don't really care who is already in. Some were obvious mistakes, some I simply don't think are HOFers, some I'm sure are HOFers. But that doesn't matter. The standard for HOF for someone else is not my standard."

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Looking at the list of current LF hall of famers, how many would you rather have instead of Raines? Maybe 4? Williams, Henderson, Yaz...maybe Stargell or Al Simmons. I doubt anyone thinks only 4 left fielders belong when 19,000 people have played major league baseball.

1. Williams
2. Bonds


3. Delahanty
4. Joe Jackson
4. Rickey
5. Al Simmons
6. Manny
7. Yaz
8. ???

It's at this point you get to Rock, Ducky Medwick, and Stargell, at least in my estimation. That's a lot more than 4. And still ignoring the fact that Ruth played almost as many games in left as right, Musial almost as many games in left as at first, and Frank Robinson played a lot of left and would easily eclipse Raines.

Ok, what is your standard?

Because, by my count, there are 4 or 5 LF better than Raines all time.

And, using OPS+ and oWAR, Bagwell is somewhere in the top 20-40 hitters of all time.

If we're only putting 4 or 5 players at each position in the hall, Derek Jeter isn't a hall of famer. If we aren't putting the 40 best hitters in, Reggie Jackson and Tony Gwynn are not hall of famers. And Joe Dimaggio becomes a borderline case.

Are you just going to ignore my post? Because I think you're really bad at counting. There are a minimum of 7.

I'd still put Raines in. But you're overstating his case a bit...

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/15/2016 6:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Looking at the list of current LF hall of famers, how many would you rather have instead of Raines? Maybe 4? Williams, Henderson, Yaz...maybe Stargell or Al Simmons. I doubt anyone thinks only 4 left fielders belong when 19,000 people have played major league baseball.

1. Williams
2. Bonds


3. Delahanty
4. Joe Jackson
4. Rickey
5. Al Simmons
6. Manny
7. Yaz
8. ???

It's at this point you get to Rock, Ducky Medwick, and Stargell, at least in my estimation. That's a lot more than 4. And still ignoring the fact that Ruth played almost as many games in left as right, Musial almost as many games in left as at first, and Frank Robinson played a lot of left and would easily eclipse Raines.

Bonds and Manny aren't Hall of Famers. But yes, they are both better than Raines. So make it 6 or 7.

Delahanty is a turn of the century guy, it's tough to say a guy who played in 1895 was better than Raines. We don't even have full boxscores for most of his games.

If you want to count RF also, fine, but you're still sitting on a very small group of corner outfielders better than Raines. Unless you think 15 or 16 is too many for the hall, he belongs.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 6:11:00 PM (view original):
Ok, what is your standard?

Because, by my count, there are 4 or 5 LF better than Raines all time.

And, using OPS+ and oWAR, Bagwell is somewhere in the top 20-40 hitters of all time.

If we're only putting 4 or 5 players at each position in the hall, Derek Jeter isn't a hall of famer. If we aren't putting the 40 best hitters in, Reggie Jackson and Tony Gwynn are not hall of famers. And Joe Dimaggio becomes a borderline case.

It was only a matter of time before he reverted to playing the WAR card

If OPS+ and oWAR determined who was a HOFer, there would be no discussion.

And I'm not sure I said "Only 4-5 players at each position". Pretty sure I didn't.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2016 8:12:00 PM (view original):
If OPS+ and oWAR determined who was a HOFer, there would be no discussion.

And I'm not sure I said "Only 4-5 players at each position". Pretty sure I didn't.

Of course you didn't actually say that, but when you say Raines doesn't belong, you're implying it because he's better than all but just a few LFs currently in the hall.

I keep saying "I don't care who's already in the HOF". Which one of those words confuse you?

I think "HOF" is confusing to BL, since he wants to fill it with non-HOF qualify players.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 6:47:00 AM (view original):
I keep saying "I don't care who's already in the HOF". Which one of those words confuse you?

I know you say that. I'm not asking you to apply your standard. It's clearly much different than the actual standard that is applied by voters.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2016 12:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/15/2016 11:56:00 AM (view original):
Who do you think gets in?

I'm guessing Raines, Bagwell, Hoffman.

I think Schilling loses ground even though he belongs. Apparently, being a huge ******* after retirement can cost you votes. Also, Wagner was better than Hoffman. If you're only going to vote for one relief pitcher on this ballot, Hoffman is the wrong choice.

All three make the HOF a bigger joke than it was.

Bitter old guy alert

You think the hall of fame should be something like 8 guys, total. Your opinion is worthless.

This

Yeah, I think I said that.

"I don't really care who is already in. Some were obvious mistakes, some I simply don't think are HOFers, some I'm sure are HOFers. But that doesn't matter. The standard for HOF for someone else is not my standard."

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2016 1:11:00 PM (view original):
You think it should exclude about 8 guys, total. Your opinion is equally worthless if not more so.

This.