Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):
****. I guess I started a post and said "**** it. What's the point?"

I tend to look at productive years vs career numbers. One way to start is MVP finishes. I think Raines was top 5 a couple of times, top 10 a couple more. Not bad. Bagwell was better than that(he won 1). Unfortunately, neither played a a "defensive" position. Greg Luzinski played LF. I think Adam Dunn spent some time out there before he played a poor 1B. Giambi played the worst 1B this side of Piazza trying to convert to 1B. You just can't put LF/1B in the HOF unless their batting screams for it. These two do not scream.

As for basethiefs, Vince Coleman was sick. Yeah, OK.

Bagwell's bat was historically good.

Raines was also very, very good and he stole a shitload of bases. He's basically Tony Gwynn with more walks/steals and less singles.

Apparently, defenders of cokeheads have poor reading comprehension. I was just asking, ARE THERE ANY ADMITTED COKEHEADS IN THE HOF?

Because it appears that they might be perceived differently than their comparably performing peers.

Posted by toddcommish on 12/16/2016 5:17:00 PM (view original):
Apparently, defenders of cokeheads have poor reading comprehension. I was just asking, ARE THERE ANY ADMITTED COKEHEADS IN THE HOF?

Because it appears that they might be perceived differently than their comparably performing peers.

I don't think cocaine will end up keeping Raines out.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
Perception.

Oh ok. In other words, nothing.

This may be the most retarded post you've ever made.

Perception matters. Possibly more than reality.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):
****. I guess I started a post and said "**** it. What's the point?"

I tend to look at productive years vs career numbers. One way to start is MVP finishes. I think Raines was top 5 a couple of times, top 10 a couple more. Not bad. Bagwell was better than that(he won 1). Unfortunately, neither played a a "defensive" position. Greg Luzinski played LF. I think Adam Dunn spent some time out there before he played a poor 1B. Giambi played the worst 1B this side of Piazza trying to convert to 1B. You just can't put LF/1B in the HOF unless their batting screams for it. These two do not scream.

As for basethiefs, Vince Coleman was sick. Yeah, OK.

Bagwell's bat was historically good.

Raines was also very, very good and he stole a shitload of bases. He's basically Tony Gwynn with more walks/steals and less singles.

You and I don't share the same love of walks.

This cannot be argued.

If you have to be VOTED into an honor (or presidency, even), then how you are PERCEIVED by the voters is more important than whatever you might think you are trying to portray. Kinda ironic that BL doesn't seem to understand that concept.

Cokeheads (or lying career politicians) are NOT perceived as good people. People that take greenies/uppers are perceived as overachievers trying to do too much. You can argue that "I was tired. I took the greenies so I wouldn't let my team down."

Whereas a cokehead says, "I wanted to get high"

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
Perception.

Oh ok. In other words, nothing.

This may be the most retarded post you've ever made.

Perception matters. Possibly more than reality.

I'm not asking why cocaine would keep someone out (perception). I'm asking what the actual difference is. The difference is nothing. If we can agree on that, we don't have to argue about cocaine usage.

Posted by toddcommish on 12/16/2016 5:25:00 PM (view original):
If you have to be VOTED into an honor (or presidency, even), then how you are PERCEIVED by the voters is more important than whatever you might think you are trying to portray. Kinda ironic that BL doesn't seem to understand that concept.

Cokeheads (or lying career politicians) are NOT perceived as good people. People that take greenies/uppers are perceived as overachievers trying to do too much. You can argue that "I was tired. I took the greenies so I wouldn't let my team down."

Whereas a cokehead says, "I wanted to get high"

I've never perceived a methamphetamine user as an overachiever.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/16/2016 4:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2016 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Jeter >> Raines.

To argue otherwise is massively retarded.

But it's you, so there's that.

Raines is something like the 8th- or 9th-best LF of all time. Jeter is something like the 6th- or 7th-best shortstop.

So maybe, relatively speaking, Jeter is a little bit better?

The reality is that a lot of players get in. Using 8000 PAs as the standard of a rough minimum to be likely to considered for induction, there have been only 45 guys in history to play long enough to get in and spend at least a few years at SS (IE that counts Banks, even though he played more of his career at first). There have been 46 at LF, and that includes Ruth, Musial, Robinson, etc. In fact, there are only 275 players in history with 8000 PAs. Total. So basically, if you're good enough to stick around for a long career, you're already almost halfway into the Hall. Even if you pared it down to guys who "feel" right, that's probably close to 1/3 or at least 1/4 of long careers. Raines feels right to me, but beyond that, I just don't see any reasonable sort of standard by which his numbers don't belong. Dude is the 2nd-best base thief in 150 years of professional baseball. You'd think that would count for something with you stat-fearing old farts.

Are you arguing that LF = SS?

Go ahead. Say that out loud.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):
****. I guess I started a post and said "**** it. What's the point?"

I tend to look at productive years vs career numbers. One way to start is MVP finishes. I think Raines was top 5 a couple of times, top 10 a couple more. Not bad. Bagwell was better than that(he won 1). Unfortunately, neither played a a "defensive" position. Greg Luzinski played LF. I think Adam Dunn spent some time out there before he played a poor 1B. Giambi played the worst 1B this side of Piazza trying to convert to 1B. You just can't put LF/1B in the HOF unless their batting screams for it. These two do not scream.

As for basethiefs, Vince Coleman was sick. Yeah, OK.

Bagwell's bat was historically good.

Raines was also very, very good and he stole a shitload of bases. He's basically Tony Gwynn with more walks/steals and less singles.

You and I don't share the same love of walks.

This cannot be argued.

Yeah, I know. You think a lot of walks are a bad thing.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
Perception.

Oh ok. In other words, nothing.

This may be the most retarded post you've ever made.

Perception matters. Possibly more than reality.

I'm not asking why cocaine would keep someone out (perception). I'm asking what the actual difference is. The difference is nothing. If we can agree on that, we don't have to argue about cocaine usage.

I answered your question in the context in which it was written. Now you're moving the target. As usual.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2016 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):
****. I guess I started a post and said "**** it. What's the point?"

I tend to look at productive years vs career numbers. One way to start is MVP finishes. I think Raines was top 5 a couple of times, top 10 a couple more. Not bad. Bagwell was better than that(he won 1). Unfortunately, neither played a a "defensive" position. Greg Luzinski played LF. I think Adam Dunn spent some time out there before he played a poor 1B. Giambi played the worst 1B this side of Piazza trying to convert to 1B. You just can't put LF/1B in the HOF unless their batting screams for it. These two do not scream.

As for basethiefs, Vince Coleman was sick. Yeah, OK.

Bagwell's bat was historically good.

Raines was also very, very good and he stole a shitload of bases. He's basically Tony Gwynn with more walks/steals and less singles.

You and I don't share the same love of walks.

This cannot be argued.

Yeah, I know. You think a lot of walks are a bad thing.

Not swinging is a skill your grandmother could master.

At least you finally admit that you think walks are bad.

Or I just tired of arguing with you over what I said.

Here's the thing. Give me 20 AB against Kluber. I'm not delusional enough to think I'll get a hit. But I might foul a few off. He might miss the strike zone a couple of times. Suddenly, I've got a walk. yay me

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2016 5:44:00 PM (view original):
Or I just tired of arguing with you over what I said.

Here's the thing. Give me 20 AB against Kluber. I'm not delusional enough to think I'll get a hit. But I might foul a few off. He might miss the strike zone a couple of times. Suddenly, I've got a walk. yay me

To borrow a genius example I heard recently, give me 20 PA against Kluber. I'm not delusional enough to think I can make hard contact but I might sneak a grounder through a hole for a single. Yay me.