Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

"I was really just trolling tec".

Confirmed. You're full of ****. Try some Miralax.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

"I was really just trolling tec".

Confirmed. You're full of ****. Try some Miralax.

No ****. Obviously Rivera is better than Hoffman. The whole, "you can't even compared the two" is what made me laugh. Because, using the stats you love and ignoring the ones you hate, Rivera and Hoffman are pretty comparable. It's not until you use advanced stats that you see the real difference between the two.

But, according to you, advanced stats are pieces of ****. So....maybe Rivera and Hoffman are comparable?

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 12:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 11:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 10:38:00 AM (view original):
I don't think anybody is trying to exclude Hoffman. Just pointing out the absurdity of the attempted "If Rivera, then also Hoffman" argument.

There's no comparison between the two. Hoffman may be able to get in on his own merit, but it's ridiculous to insist that he HAS to get in on Rivera's coattails as if they're equals.

Well, I'm not arguing for Hoffman, but there certainly is a comparison between the two.

River has about 200 more IP, but their ERAs are relatively close (2.76 vs 3.08), their WHIPs are relatively close (1.00 vs 1.05) and their save totals are relatively close (652 vs 601).

Good to see that you're just as dumb in 2017 as you were in past years.

Lets use some of your favorite advanced metrics to compare the two.

Let's start with your absolute favorite, WAR (************!!!!)

Mariano Rivera: 56.6
Trevor Hoffman: 28.0 (less than half of Rivera's)

Not even close.

Let's look at another of your favorites, ERA+:

Mariano Rivera: 205*
Trevor Hoffman: 141

Again, not even close.

* To put the ERA+ number in a little perspective, here are the top 15 all-time for pitchers with over 1,000 career IP:

Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Adjusted ERA+	Throws
1.	Mariano Rivera (19)	205	R
2.	Clayton Kershaw (9, 28)	159	L
3.	Pedro Martinez+ (18)	154	R
4.	Jim Devlin (5)	150	R
5.	Lefty Grove+ (17)	148	L
6.	Walter Johnson+ (21)	147	R
	Hoyt Wilhelm+ (21)	147	R
8.	Dan Quisenberry (12)	146	R
	Smoky Joe Wood (14)	146	R
10.	Ed Walsh+ (14)	145	R
11.	Roger Clemens (24)	143	R
12.	Addie Joss+ (9)	142	R
	Brandon Webb (7)	142	R
14.	Trevor Hoffman (18)	141	R
15.	Kid Nichols+ (15)	140	R

Which one of those, I ask, is not like the others?

Also, if you're putting up a list that includes names like Pedro, Clemens, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, and Rivera, and then asking which one of those is not like the others, it's Rivera. And not because he's at the top of the list. It's because he's a reliever.

If anything highlights the VAST difference between starting and relieving, it's the fact that (among retired players) Rivera has a 51 point lead in ERA+.

No one thinks Rivera was a better pitcher than Pedro, Clemens, Johnson, etc.

So Wilhelm, Quisenberry and Hoffman were not relievers? Rivera is not like them because he's a reliever?

Maybe you should take a few days off from the forums. You're not starting 2017 off on the right foot.

So, is your point that Rivera was better than all the pitchers on that list?

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

"I was really just trolling tec".

Confirmed. You're full of ****. Try some Miralax.

No ****. Obviously Rivera is better than Hoffman. The whole, "you can't even compared the two" is what made me laugh. Because, using the stats you love and ignoring the ones you hate, Rivera and Hoffman are pretty comparable. It's not until you use advanced stats that you see the real difference between the two.

But, according to you, advanced stats are pieces of ****. So....maybe Rivera and Hoffman are comparable?

Which "stats that I love" show that Rivera and Hoffman are comparable?

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 2:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

"I was really just trolling tec".

Confirmed. You're full of ****. Try some Miralax.

No ****. Obviously Rivera is better than Hoffman. The whole, "you can't even compared the two" is what made me laugh. Because, using the stats you love and ignoring the ones you hate, Rivera and Hoffman are pretty comparable. It's not until you use advanced stats that you see the real difference between the two.

But, according to you, advanced stats are pieces of ****. So....maybe Rivera and Hoffman are comparable?

Which "stats that I love" show that Rivera and Hoffman are comparable?

WHIP
Saves
ERA

I love saves?

I love saves?

Oh, ok. Then just WHIP and ERA.

Seriously. Step away from the Forums. You're embarrassing yourself.

Am I? I don't feel embarrassed. I think this is great.

Tell me, great evaluator of pitchers, what you think the best stats are.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:26:00 PM (view original):
Oh, ok. Then just WHIP and ERA.

I don't have a problem with WHIP. Nothing wrong with measuring how many runners one puts on base in an inning.

Not sure why you think I "love" ERA, other than you're desperate for an argument and are just pulling **** out of your ***.

Maybe you should shut down your web browser for a couple of days, clear your head. You're having a bad forum day.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:31:00 PM (view original):
Am I? I don't feel embarrassed. I think this is great.

Tell me, great evaluator of pitchers, what you think the best stats are.

Why? You seem to be doing a fantastic job of telling me what I think they are.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:26:00 PM (view original):
Oh, ok. Then just WHIP and ERA.

I don't have a problem with WHIP. Nothing wrong with measuring how many runners one puts on base in an inning.

Not sure why you think I "love" ERA, other than you're desperate for an argument and are just pulling **** out of your ***.

Maybe you should shut down your web browser for a couple of days, clear your head. You're having a bad forum day.

So we agree that WHIP is useful.

Hoffman's WHIP: 1.06
Rivera's WHIP: 1.00

Any other stats you like?

Two of these aren't "relatively close" unless you go back to the "3.2 and 3.9 WAR are practically the same" thought of reasoning.


"River has about 200 more IP, but their ERAs are relatively close (2.76 vs 3.08), their WHIPs are relatively close (1.00 vs 1.05) and their save totals are relatively close (652 vs 601)"

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/4/2017 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Two of these aren't "relatively close" unless you go back to the "3.2 and 3.9 WAR are practically the same" thought of reasoning.


"River has about 200 more IP, but their ERAs are relatively close (2.76 vs 3.08), their WHIPs are relatively close (1.00 vs 1.05) and their save totals are relatively close (652 vs 601)"

Which two aren't relatively close?