Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 1/3/2017 7:07:00 PM (view original):
yeah, but it was 80 innings for the Padres. who cared?

Clearly you're going to make whatever rationalizations you have to in order to exclude Hoffman, so there's really no point in continuing this debate.

I never said Hoffman should e excluded. Just saying he's not close to being in the same class as Rivera.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 12:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 11:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 10:38:00 AM (view original):
I don't think anybody is trying to exclude Hoffman. Just pointing out the absurdity of the attempted "If Rivera, then also Hoffman" argument.

There's no comparison between the two. Hoffman may be able to get in on his own merit, but it's ridiculous to insist that he HAS to get in on Rivera's coattails as if they're equals.

Well, I'm not arguing for Hoffman, but there certainly is a comparison between the two.

River has about 200 more IP, but their ERAs are relatively close (2.76 vs 3.08), their WHIPs are relatively close (1.00 vs 1.05) and their save totals are relatively close (652 vs 601).

Good to see that you're just as dumb in 2017 as you were in past years.

Lets use some of your favorite advanced metrics to compare the two.

Let's start with your absolute favorite, WAR (************!!!!)

Mariano Rivera: 56.6
Trevor Hoffman: 28.0 (less than half of Rivera's)

Not even close.

Let's look at another of your favorites, ERA+:

Mariano Rivera: 205*
Trevor Hoffman: 141

Again, not even close.

* To put the ERA+ number in a little perspective, here are the top 15 all-time for pitchers with over 1,000 career IP:

Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Adjusted ERA+	Throws
1.	Mariano Rivera (19)	205	R
2.	Clayton Kershaw (9, 28)	159	L
3.	Pedro Martinez+ (18)	154	R
4.	Jim Devlin (5)	150	R
5.	Lefty Grove+ (17)	148	L
6.	Walter Johnson+ (21)	147	R
	Hoyt Wilhelm+ (21)	147	R
8.	Dan Quisenberry (12)	146	R
	Smoky Joe Wood (14)	146	R
10.	Ed Walsh+ (14)	145	R
11.	Roger Clemens (24)	143	R
12.	Addie Joss+ (9)	142	R
	Brandon Webb (7)	142	R
14.	Trevor Hoffman (18)	141	R
15.	Kid Nichols+ (15)	140	R

Which one of those, I ask, is not like the others?

Wait, are you saying that you like WAR and ERA+ now?

I think WAR is still the piece of **** that I've always thought it was.

I'm just wondering why you're ignoring two of your favorite stats when trying to compare Rivera and Hoffman and implying that they're close?

Posted by wylie715 on 1/4/2017 12:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 1/3/2017 7:07:00 PM (view original):
yeah, but it was 80 innings for the Padres. who cared?

Clearly you're going to make whatever rationalizations you have to in order to exclude Hoffman, so there's really no point in continuing this debate.

I never said Hoffman should e excluded. Just saying he's not close to being in the same class as Rivera.

I've never said he's close. I said he's a distant second. But he's also well up on the third-place RP, whoever that may be.

Rivera is head and shoulders better. My point is simply that the only way you can justify including Rivera and not Hoffman in the HOF is if your position is that Rivera is the only RP who should be in the hall. Which I think is a foolish position. Hoffman was an all-time great at what he did.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 1:10:00 PM (view original):
I think WAR is still the piece of **** that I've always thought it was.

I'm just wondering why you're ignoring two of your favorite stats when trying to compare Rivera and Hoffman and implying that they're close?

If you think it's a piece of ****, why would you use it?

I skipped it because I thought you hated it.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 1:10:00 PM (view original):
I think WAR is still the piece of **** that I've always thought it was.

I'm just wondering why you're ignoring two of your favorite stats when trying to compare Rivera and Hoffman and implying that they're close?

If you think it's a piece of ****, why would you use it?

I skipped it because I thought you hated it.

Stop making yourself look dumber. This is exactly why no one takes you seriously. You constantly spout about the value of a "stat", and yet when it would refute your point, you ignore it. Rivera was significantly better than Hoffman. Hoffman is still a HOF reliever - but he's not Rivera.

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 1:10:00 PM (view original):
I think WAR is still the piece of **** that I've always thought it was.

I'm just wondering why you're ignoring two of your favorite stats when trying to compare Rivera and Hoffman and implying that they're close?

If you think it's a piece of ****, why would you use it?

I skipped it because I thought you hated it.

Stop making yourself look dumber. This is exactly why no one takes you seriously. You constantly spout about the value of a "stat", and yet when it would refute your point, you ignore it. Rivera was significantly better than Hoffman. Hoffman is still a HOF reliever - but he's not Rivera.

Either the stat has value or it doesn't. It doesn't only have value when it fits a certain argument.

tec has spent the last however many years having a stroke anytime I bring up WAR. Kinda weird that now he wants to use it, even though he thinks "it's a piece of ****."

Your throwing up a smokescreen which, again, is why no one takes you seriously - you do it constantly.

You bring up WAR in plenty of other conversations knowing people hate it, and yet now, when it would hurt your argument, you conveniently leave it out in order to "respect" your fellow users? No one is buying that.

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:53:00 PM (view original):
Your throwing up a smokescreen which, again, is why no one takes you seriously - you do it constantly.

You bring up WAR in plenty of other conversations knowing people hate it, and yet now, when it would hurt your argument, you conveniently leave it out in order to "respect" your fellow users? No one is buying that.

I try not to use WAR when directly addressing tec.

Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 12:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 11:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/4/2017 10:38:00 AM (view original):
I don't think anybody is trying to exclude Hoffman. Just pointing out the absurdity of the attempted "If Rivera, then also Hoffman" argument.

There's no comparison between the two. Hoffman may be able to get in on his own merit, but it's ridiculous to insist that he HAS to get in on Rivera's coattails as if they're equals.

Well, I'm not arguing for Hoffman, but there certainly is a comparison between the two.

River has about 200 more IP, but their ERAs are relatively close (2.76 vs 3.08), their WHIPs are relatively close (1.00 vs 1.05) and their save totals are relatively close (652 vs 601).

Good to see that you're just as dumb in 2017 as you were in past years.

Lets use some of your favorite advanced metrics to compare the two.

Let's start with your absolute favorite, WAR (************!!!!)

Mariano Rivera: 56.6
Trevor Hoffman: 28.0 (less than half of Rivera's)

Not even close.

Let's look at another of your favorites, ERA+:

Mariano Rivera: 205*
Trevor Hoffman: 141

Again, not even close.

* To put the ERA+ number in a little perspective, here are the top 15 all-time for pitchers with over 1,000 career IP:

Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Adjusted ERA+	Throws
1.	Mariano Rivera (19)	205	R
2.	Clayton Kershaw (9, 28)	159	L
3.	Pedro Martinez+ (18)	154	R
4.	Jim Devlin (5)	150	R
5.	Lefty Grove+ (17)	148	L
6.	Walter Johnson+ (21)	147	R
	Hoyt Wilhelm+ (21)	147	R
8.	Dan Quisenberry (12)	146	R
	Smoky Joe Wood (14)	146	R
10.	Ed Walsh+ (14)	145	R
11.	Roger Clemens (24)	143	R
12.	Addie Joss+ (9)	142	R
	Brandon Webb (7)	142	R
14.	Trevor Hoffman (18)	141	R
15.	Kid Nichols+ (15)	140	R

Which one of those, I ask, is not like the others?

Also, if you're putting up a list that includes names like Pedro, Clemens, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, and Rivera, and then asking which one of those is not like the others, it's Rivera. And not because he's at the top of the list. It's because he's a reliever.

If anything highlights the VAST difference between starting and relieving, it's the fact that (among retired players) Rivera has a 51 point lead in ERA+.

No one thinks Rivera was a better pitcher than Pedro, Clemens, Johnson, etc.

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

For example, I think Wagner was the second best reliever of the modern era, not Hoffman. I'd vote for Wagner before Hoffman.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Whatever you say. I'm just trying to help you understand why people don't take you seriously, because you clearly don't get it.

No one in this thread believes for a second that you left out WAR out of respect for tec. You did it because it would've blown a hole in your "Rivera and Hoffman are relatively close" argument. Period.

I definitely think Rivera is better than Hoffman. I think Hoffman is incredibly overrated. I was really just trolling tec.

Anytime I use the Pitcher W/L or Saves I'm not being serious. Because those are not serious stats.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/4/2017 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/4/2017 1:53:00 PM (view original):
Your throwing up a smokescreen which, again, is why no one takes you seriously - you do it constantly.

You bring up WAR in plenty of other conversations knowing people hate it, and yet now, when it would hurt your argument, you conveniently leave it out in order to "respect" your fellow users? No one is buying that.

I try not to use WAR when directly addressing tec.

Yep, you're full of ****.