Since I'm supposedly your sidekick, I probably should have waited for you to say that you felt Beltre was a HOFer before jumping it with my "Oh yeah, me too!!!".

Sorry.

Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2017 2:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/17/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):
Beltre is absolutely a HOF 3Bman at this point. He could suffer a career-ending injury before the season starts and he'd go in, and deservedly so. But that doesn't mean Rolen shouldn't. His best 10 years were from 1997-2006 and he was easily the best 3B in baseball during that time. A-Rod switched to 3B toward the end of that period, and Beltre happened to be better than Rolen in Rolen's best season, but nobody was close to Rolen's level for more than a year or 2 of that decade.

Tec, your standards are obviously way out of touch with reality. There are over 21 players per position in the HOF at this point. You can't have that many guys who were "one of the best ever." What you call 'common sense' is really 'I'm too lazy to actually compare this guy to the historical standard at his position.' You and Mike can spend all the time you like in Fantasyland where only 40 or 50 guys make the HOF, but in the real world it just makes you sound ignorant when you offhandedly dismiss guys like Rolen or Beltre or Raines and can't even begin to formulate an intelligent argument in favor of your position.

I challenge you to come up with a list of 12 3B in the history of baseball who were better than Rolen.

This is a retarded argument. The smartest kid on the short bus doesn't get into Yale because he was a the smartest kid on the short bus.

FWIW, I can easily dismiss Rolen and Raines because they aren't HOFers. Raines hasn't gotten better. I'm not sure why his support has grown because, in truth, that makes no sense. People haven't had full ballots and he was the 11th man. They just haven't felt he was worthy before. Rolen never gets in regardless of how many 3B are in. See: smartest kid/short bus/Yale story.

I've changed my mind on Beltre. He's probably full of PED but he's carried himself well over the last few years.

It's not that Raines has gotten better, it's that our understanding of what makes a player good has evolved.

I wouldn't be surprised if a continued evolution leads to Rolen eventually being recognized as an all-time great.

Raines was also a fantastic leadoff hitter. If it wasn't for playing at the same time as Rickey, he'd likely get a lot more love. But apparently you can't be good if you play in the same era as someone who's better at your position.

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/17/2017 3:35:00 PM (view original):
Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

You are so beyond retarded if you think that was my argument, jtpop_luck.

My argument was that is ridiculous to say that "if Rivera, then also Hoffman" because there are light years of difference between the two. I never said that Hoffman wasn't worthy. I just said that you can't connect him to Rivera as a reason to induct.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just that desperate to argue? If it's the latter, then you really are just PSBL Jr.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/17/2017 4:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/17/2017 3:35:00 PM (view original):
Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

You are so beyond retarded if you think that was my argument, jtpop_luck.

My argument was that is ridiculous to say that "if Rivera, then also Hoffman" because there are light years of difference between the two. I never said that Hoffman wasn't worthy. I just said that you can't connect him to Rivera as a reason to induct.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just that desperate to argue? If it's the latter, then you really are just PSBL Jr.

Not that it really matters because they're both going to be Hall of Fame relief pitchers, but I think you're overstating the difference between the two.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/17/2017 4:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/17/2017 3:35:00 PM (view original):
Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

You are so beyond retarded if you think that was my argument, jtpop_luck.

My argument was that is ridiculous to say that "if Rivera, then also Hoffman" because there are light years of difference between the two. I never said that Hoffman wasn't worthy. I just said that you can't connect him to Rivera as a reason to induct.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just that desperate to argue? If it's the latter, then you really are just PSBL Jr.

Since, like your mentor, you conveniently like to forget what you've said, here's a quote:

"There are already a handful of relievers in the HOF. All were clearly "revolutionary", or at least, the dominant RP's of their era. Hoffman was neither."

You're penalizing Hoffman for playing at the same time as Rivera. But by all means, keep taking a page out of Mikey's playbook and try to convince us that's not what you said.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/17/2017 4:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/17/2017 4:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/17/2017 3:35:00 PM (view original):
Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

You are so beyond retarded if you think that was my argument, jtpop_luck.

My argument was that is ridiculous to say that "if Rivera, then also Hoffman" because there are light years of difference between the two. I never said that Hoffman wasn't worthy. I just said that you can't connect him to Rivera as a reason to induct.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just that desperate to argue? If it's the latter, then you really are just PSBL Jr.

Not that it really matters because they're both going to be Hall of Fame relief pitchers, but I think you're overstating the difference between the two.

Please. Enlighten me.

So you constantly mock BL for his circular arguing, and now you're using the same tactic? If you want to be enlightened, go back and read the other thread.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/17/2017 4:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/17/2017 4:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/17/2017 4:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/17/2017 3:35:00 PM (view original):
Tec, you lost any credibility in the other thread when you penalized Hoffman for never being the best RP during his career, knowing full well that's only because his career happened to coincide with the undisputed greatest reliever of all-time.

You are so beyond retarded if you think that was my argument, jtpop_luck.

My argument was that is ridiculous to say that "if Rivera, then also Hoffman" because there are light years of difference between the two. I never said that Hoffman wasn't worthy. I just said that you can't connect him to Rivera as a reason to induct.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just that desperate to argue? If it's the latter, then you really are just PSBL Jr.

Not that it really matters because they're both going to be Hall of Fame relief pitchers, but I think you're overstating the difference between the two.

Please. Enlighten me.

Rivera was better, but the two aren't dramatically far apart.

Unless you think WAR is a good stat.

If you think 141 and 205 ERA+ are similar I guess you could say that. But given that one is best all-time, and the other is 14th, maybe it's not so similar after all. Especially given that 2nd is closer to 14th than 1st. In fact, 2nd is closer to 273rd than 1st. There's one massive outlier in the history of pitching effectiveness and I really don't see much merit to any argument claiming anybody else is even close.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/17/2017 6:07:00 PM (view original):
If you think 141 and 205 ERA+ are similar I guess you could say that. But given that one is best all-time, and the other is 14th, maybe it's not so similar after all. Especially given that 2nd is closer to 14th than 1st. In fact, 2nd is closer to 273rd than 1st. There's one massive outlier in the history of pitching effectiveness and I really don't see much merit to any argument claiming anybody else is even close.

I'm just ******* with tec.

Hoffman is overrated as all hell.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/17/2017 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/17/2017 6:07:00 PM (view original):
If you think 141 and 205 ERA+ are similar I guess you could say that. But given that one is best all-time, and the other is 14th, maybe it's not so similar after all. Especially given that 2nd is closer to 14th than 1st. In fact, 2nd is closer to 273rd than 1st. There's one massive outlier in the history of pitching effectiveness and I really don't see much merit to any argument claiming anybody else is even close.

I'm just ******* with tec.

Hoffman is overrated as all hell.

Whoa easy tiger! Hoffman is the second best closer of all-time and has a good head on his shoulders. Remember, there's a character clause for HOF voting criteria.

He isn't the second best relief pitcher of all time. He was a very good relief pitcher who has a high number in the "saves" stat column.

Hoffman has a stronger argument as 3rd-best all-time than a lot of people seem to give him. I think Rivera is Hoyt Wilhelm is almost as obviously 2nd-best as Mariano is obviously best. If you consider Eck's innings exclusively as a reliever he's pretty similar to Hoffman but not clearly better. I'd put Billy Wagner 3rd, but Hoffman has a decently significant IP advantage. By the same argument you could take Gossage over Hoffman, but Hoffman has a significant performance advantage. You could also put K-Rod ahead of Hoffman. Not sure how he's been so overlooked. He was a hot commodity about a decade ago when he was a top-5 Cy Young finisher 3 times in 5 years and then everybody just started ignoring him. I don't know who else you could really put ahead of Hoffman. Maybe Firpo Marberry.