2018 HOF future eligibles Topic

That's simply the reverse of the old-timer ranting about how things were better back in the old days.

The game has evolved. The coverage has evolved. But that doesn't make valuable back in 1973 less valuable in 1973.

1/18/2017 10:31 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/18/2017 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Another person completely missing the point.

Maybe you and PSBL can get together and start a support group.
Ok TecT23. Say something, then when you're called on it, pretend you meant something different.

You clearly said we should account for the reputation of relievers, and how feared guys like Gossage and Fingers were. You cited Cy Young voting, even though you know RPs didn't suddenly become worse or less deserving of the Cy - some voters simply "evolved" and decided RPs no longer merited serious consideration. That's hardly Hoffman's fault. He had better numbers than those two AND pitched in a way more offensive era.

You throwing up Cy votes as evidence is purely a smokescreen when you know full well it's the voters who have changed, not the quality of RPs.
1/18/2017 10:35 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 1/18/2017 10:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/18/2017 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Another person completely missing the point.

Maybe you and PSBL can get together and start a support group.
Ok TecT23. Say something, then when you're called on it, pretend you meant something different.

You clearly said we should account for the reputation of relievers, and how feared guys like Gossage and Fingers were. You cited Cy Young voting, even though you know RPs didn't suddenly become worse or less deserving of the Cy - some voters simply "evolved" and decided RPs no longer merited serious consideration. That's hardly Hoffman's fault. He had better numbers than those two AND pitched in a way more offensive era.

You throwing up Cy votes as evidence is purely a smokescreen when you know full well it's the voters who have changed, not the quality of RPs.
PSJT.

I meant exactly what I said. Not sure why you think I'm trying to back off on anything.

You seem to be failing to understand that RP are being used quite differently in the current era that they were 30-40 years ago. It's incredibly dumb to compare things like WHIP and ERA for today's one inning closer against WHIP and ERA for the 2-3 inning firemen of the 70's and 80's.

Unless you want to assert that Hoffman's numbers, in a "less offensive era" such as the late 70's, would be exactly the same if he were pitching 2 to 3 innings a game. Or that a Gossage in his prime would not have thrived as a one inning closer in 2016.

Please go ahead and humor me. Insist that would be the case.
1/18/2017 11:26 AM
"YA, HUMOR ME!!"



I'm not here to jump through your hoops. I'm sure you and your big bro can humor each other.
1/18/2017 11:33 AM
The way people voted for awards has changed. As have the attitudes of the baseball establishment. Imagine what Goose would have been told if he informed teams he'd only be pitching the 9th. "What kind a raging ***** only pitches one inning?"

I honestly have no idea which "side" I'm taking here. A CY vote in 1976 is quite different than one in 2006. Because pitcher usage evolved. But you can't discount it because they decided to stop voting for RP. Gossage/Fingers were the Rivera/Hoffman of the 70s. But, because it wasn't uncommon for them to get 6-9 outs, their WHIP/ERA isn't going to compare.
1/18/2017 11:46 AM
Yeah, I thought so. PSJT has realized that he's argued himself into a wet paper bag and can't punch his way out of it.

So sad for the BL wanna-be.
1/18/2017 11:46 AM
1/18/2017 11:52 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2017 11:46:00 AM (view original):
The way people voted for awards has changed. As have the attitudes of the baseball establishment. Imagine what Goose would have been told if he informed teams he'd only be pitching the 9th. "What kind a raging ***** only pitches one inning?"

I honestly have no idea which "side" I'm taking here. A CY vote in 1976 is quite different than one in 2006. Because pitcher usage evolved. But you can't discount it because they decided to stop voting for RP. Gossage/Fingers were the Rivera/Hoffman of the 70s. But, because it wasn't uncommon for them to get 6-9 outs, their WHIP/ERA isn't going to compare.
I'm discounting using "top 8" (or top 6 or top 5, because tec decided to switch it up in his comparison) Cy Young finishes anytime. We know enough about the voting to know better.

If you want to argue that RPs were used differently, no one will dispute it, because it's a fact. But we still use stats (other than saves) to know who was better.
1/18/2017 12:19 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/18/2017 12:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2017 11:46:00 AM (view original):
The way people voted for awards has changed. As have the attitudes of the baseball establishment. Imagine what Goose would have been told if he informed teams he'd only be pitching the 9th. "What kind a raging ***** only pitches one inning?"

I honestly have no idea which "side" I'm taking here. A CY vote in 1976 is quite different than one in 2006. Because pitcher usage evolved. But you can't discount it because they decided to stop voting for RP. Gossage/Fingers were the Rivera/Hoffman of the 70s. But, because it wasn't uncommon for them to get 6-9 outs, their WHIP/ERA isn't going to compare.
I'm discounting using "top 8" (or top 6 or top 5, because tec decided to switch it up in his comparison) Cy Young finishes anytime. We know enough about the voting to know better.

If you want to argue that RPs were used differently, no one will dispute it, because it's a fact. But we still use stats (other than saves) to know who was better.
Would Hoffman's stats have been the same or different had he been used as a 2-3 inning RP in the 70's and 80's as opposed to a one inning closer in the 90's and 00's?

Bonus question: if not, then how do you compare stats between different eras, when the context of how a relief pitcher was used was drastically different?
1/18/2017 12:29 PM
I'm not willing to discount the opinions of those who covered the game during a specific era. We know GG voting has been horrible but is MVP/CY voting on par with that? I don't think so. They haven't always gotten it right but guys in the top 5 or 8 are generally one of the best 10 or so.

If you want to compare stats, that's fine. Baseball is a stat game. But I'd be more likely to compare the 1 inning outings from Gossage to Hoffman''s career numbers. We know the one inning mentality is much different than "I've got to pitch the next 3".
1/18/2017 12:31 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/18/2017 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/18/2017 12:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2017 11:46:00 AM (view original):
The way people voted for awards has changed. As have the attitudes of the baseball establishment. Imagine what Goose would have been told if he informed teams he'd only be pitching the 9th. "What kind a raging ***** only pitches one inning?"

I honestly have no idea which "side" I'm taking here. A CY vote in 1976 is quite different than one in 2006. Because pitcher usage evolved. But you can't discount it because they decided to stop voting for RP. Gossage/Fingers were the Rivera/Hoffman of the 70s. But, because it wasn't uncommon for them to get 6-9 outs, their WHIP/ERA isn't going to compare.
I'm discounting using "top 8" (or top 6 or top 5, because tec decided to switch it up in his comparison) Cy Young finishes anytime. We know enough about the voting to know better.

If you want to argue that RPs were used differently, no one will dispute it, because it's a fact. But we still use stats (other than saves) to know who was better.
Would Hoffman's stats have been the same or different had he been used as a 2-3 inning RP in the 70's and 80's as opposed to a one inning closer in the 90's and 00's?

Bonus question: if not, then how do you compare stats between different eras, when the context of how a relief pitcher was used was drastically different?
They would have been different, which is why it's important to consider volume along with rate stats. Stats like IP and WAR are two examples.

You do it the same way you evaluate starting pitchers across eras, knowing that guys in 1905 threw 400 innings a year while guys in 2005 threw 200.
1/18/2017 12:37 PM
Yeah. And the way you do that is by considering how Mr. 1905 was generally regarded by those who watched and covered the game in 1905.
1/18/2017 12:51 PM
I disagree. In 1905 or 1960 or whenever, a lot of people who covered game thought things like pitcher wins and saves and RBI (for hitters) were important stats. They voted for awards based on those "important" stats.

Instead of relying on the poor judgement (maybe through no fault of their own) of those writers, we should evaluate what actually happened on the field.
1/18/2017 12:57 PM
Well, we've had this discussion before, fruitlessly, but pitching to contact is a real thing. Pitchers do it to extend themselves in games. It's been around forever. Why use 6 pitches when will one do? That changes stats.

Of course, we did it in relation to guys with leads in games and you flat out rejected that idea, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.
1/18/2017 1:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/18/2017 12:57:00 PM (view original):
I disagree. In 1905 or 1960 or whenever, a lot of people who covered game thought things like pitcher wins and saves and RBI (for hitters) were important stats. They voted for awards based on those "important" stats.

Instead of relying on the poor judgement (maybe through no fault of their own) of those writers, we should evaluate what actually happened on the field.
The game was played very differently back then. You can't just look at 1905 stats with your modern day understanding (and bias) while ignoring the context in which those stats were achieved.

"Boy, those 1905 players must have all been ****** hitters because they sure bunted a lot".
1/18/2017 1:35 PM
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