Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2017 8:41:00 AM (view original):
Again, it's not that big of a deal. But, when one can easily manipulate a portion of the game, the game isn't as good as it should be. And, if it can be changed/fixed, it should be.

The thing I simply do not understand is how the vocal posters can change what they value/don't value so easily. Manipulated preferences affects recruiting. Using TJ's made-up 3-5.5%, I think users will take that 3-5.5% all day. Yet, when a favored team loses a battle, the system is completely broken. Has no one else considered that the favored team got to be favored by manipulating preferences? I won't even get into benis' hypocrisy that he displays time and time again.

Now you're just whining. I asked you yesterday how you would fix this "problem." You said "I don't have a solution," and you "have no idea how to stop it." I don't think the so-called gaming of the uptempo (or outside shooting, or paint) preference is a problem, and even if it was, I don't think it's "fixable" at all, short of removing the preference, which strikes me as doing elective surgery with a sledgehammer when a scalpel would suffice. How do you catch/punish the "gamers"?

But more importantly, so what? If some crappy team (or not crappy team, for that matter -- see chap's post) wants to run uptempo, or pound the ball into the paint, to help themselves in recruiting, why do you care? They're trying to succeed in the game, and using their own strategy to do it. Why is this bad? Teams do "artificial" things in real life all the time -- see the widespread practice of hiring a recruit's AAU coach/high school coach/etc. as an assistant or support staff.

For someone who complains a lot that people are cluttering up the forums, you could certainly stand to take your own advice.

Sigh. CS has already said they're working on it. THEY must see it as an issue. Doesn't matter what you or I think.

However, the larger question is the "But more importantly, so what?" If a game is easily manipulated, it's an obvious flaw. Obvious flaws should be fixed. In HBD, I figured out a way to protect more than 40 on my 40 man roster before the Rule 5 draft. You'd say "So what? You're trying to succeed in the game, and using your own strategy to do it." I, on the other hand, notified CS and posted how to do it in the forums so others could do it until it was fixed. Why? Yes, I was trying to succeed but I found a loophole and my efforts to succeed restricted the efforts of others to succeed. Not because I was playing the game better but because I found a loophole. Unless, of course, you think exploiting loopholes/flaws IS playing the game better. I don't.

HD example:

One of the users in our conference found a way to get free scouting on transfers. He could have kept it to himself. He told all of us. When jtxx2stfu joined took our 12th spot, we told him.

It's just a matter of what you want to get from your sim game.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2017 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Sigh. CS has already said they're working on it. THEY must see it as an issue. Doesn't matter what you or I think.

However, the larger question is the "But more importantly, so what?" If a game is easily manipulated, it's an obvious flaw. Obvious flaws should be fixed. In HBD, I figured out a way to protect more than 40 on my 40 man roster before the Rule 5 draft. You'd say "So what? You're trying to succeed in the game, and using your own strategy to do it." I, on the other hand, notified CS and posted how to do it in the forums so others could do it until it was fixed. Why? Yes, I was trying to succeed but I found a loophole and my efforts to succeed restricted the efforts of others to succeed. Not because I was playing the game better but because I found a loophole. Unless, of course, you think exploiting loopholes/flaws IS playing the game better. I don't.

Sigh is right. I think you misunderstand what CS is doing -- they're not closing your so-called loophole -- they're making the uptempo preference more accurate (per the OP's original complaint -- so if you run uptempo every game, you actually get credit for it for those recruits who care).

Congrats for being a saint and notifying CS when you found a flaw in HBD, but your example is a false equivalence. In HBD, it seems (I don't play it, so I don't know for sure) you found a way to get around roster limits, and other players apparently did not know how to do that -- moreover, there was (apparently) a 40-man cap (i.e., a rule) on the number of players you could protect. Here, it is obvious when a recruit wants a fast pace, and it is equally obvious that you can run uptempo to be more attractive to that recruit. Any team can elect to run uptempo, and there's no rule/game constraint barring you from doing so. So it's not really a "loophole" at all, since anyone can do it.

Running uptempo so you are more attractive to a recruit who has that preference is no different than offering 15 minutes to a recruit who wants to play. Either way, you're making a decision (that could have negative effects on your team) in order to improve your recruiting chances. Are minutes promises an "obvious flaw" as well? If not, why not? You're manipulating the game, and easily too.

Well, one can assume you missed my initial comment. As a n00b, I didn't even think to manipulate preferences. As a 2nd season player, I didn't even think to do it. It wasn't until my 3rd season that I noticed that preferences changed.

So, while anyone can do it, everyone doesn't know it.

As for promised minutes/starts, there's a big box to check during recruiting. Is there some box to check to manipulate preferences? Or even a guideline on how to do it?

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/15/2017 12:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/15/2017 12:40:00 PM (view original):
The ability to "adjust" what preferences you have by playing up/normal/slow almost feels like tanking in HBD. With how HD works, you expect to lose until you get "your" players, anything gimmicky to adjust how recruits see you feels wrong. Just flinging up threes when you have no one who can hit 20% of them, is a game flaw. Playing uptempo, when all your players will be gassed with 10 minutes left, is a game flaw.

Or maybe I'm just ****** I didn't think of it 2 seasons ago.

Either way, it is "gaming the system".

And, no, I don't have a solution of any sort.

It's like a light bulb is slowly coming on in my head. I noticed some recruits become Very Good wrt paint offense. However, I needed to take more 3s so I adjusted. Now they're just Good. So, since I don't expect to get any post-season bids this year, it's really stupid of me to keep jacking up 3s. The "smart" thing to do is stop it. The "right" thing to do is to do what's best to win games. There shouldn't be a difference between smart/right.

This. Since you're rather picky on what posts you read prior to arguing.

Finally, I won't apply for sainthood. We're 8 games in. I've got 9 or 10 potential recruits at Good for Paint O. We're actually getting better at making 3s. There is the internal conflict of shooting them as I don't expect a post-season bid(RPI 161). A couple of unexpected losses will make the decision for me.

I don't think that decision should be there. Unless you feel that the Sixers did the right thing, you'd expect sports teams to do their best to win each game.

Posted by johnsensing on 2/16/2017 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2017 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Sigh. CS has already said they're working on it. THEY must see it as an issue. Doesn't matter what you or I think.

However, the larger question is the "But more importantly, so what?" If a game is easily manipulated, it's an obvious flaw. Obvious flaws should be fixed. In HBD, I figured out a way to protect more than 40 on my 40 man roster before the Rule 5 draft. You'd say "So what? You're trying to succeed in the game, and using your own strategy to do it." I, on the other hand, notified CS and posted how to do it in the forums so others could do it until it was fixed. Why? Yes, I was trying to succeed but I found a loophole and my efforts to succeed restricted the efforts of others to succeed. Not because I was playing the game better but because I found a loophole. Unless, of course, you think exploiting loopholes/flaws IS playing the game better. I don't.

Sigh is right. I think you misunderstand what CS is doing -- they're not closing your so-called loophole -- they're making the uptempo preference more accurate (per the OP's original complaint -- so if you run uptempo every game, you actually get credit for it for those recruits who care).

Congrats for being a saint and notifying CS when you found a flaw in HBD, but your example is a false equivalence. In HBD, it seems (I don't play it, so I don't know for sure) you found a way to get around roster limits, and other players apparently did not know how to do that -- moreover, there was (apparently) a 40-man cap (i.e., a rule) on the number of players you could protect. Here, it is obvious when a recruit wants a fast pace, and it is equally obvious that you can run uptempo to be more attractive to that recruit. Any team can elect to run uptempo, and there's no rule/game constraint barring you from doing so. So it's not really a "loophole" at all, since anyone can do it.

Running uptempo so you are more attractive to a recruit who has that preference is no different than offering 15 minutes to a recruit who wants to play. Either way, you're making a decision (that could have negative effects on your team) in order to improve your recruiting chances. Are minutes promises an "obvious flaw" as well? If not, why not? You're manipulating the game, and easily too.

Bingo. 1st paragraph is spot on.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2017 9:41:00 AM (view original):
Finally, I won't apply for sainthood. We're 8 games in. I've got 9 or 10 potential recruits at Good for Paint O. We're actually getting better at making 3s. There is the internal conflict of shooting them as I don't expect a post-season bid(RPI 161). A couple of unexpected losses will make the decision for me.

I don't think that decision should be there. Unless you feel that the Sixers did the right thing, you'd expect sports teams to do their best to win each game.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. If you're not making the postseason (or even if you are), why not up your chances of getting recruits? Seems like good strategy -- just like the Sixers' strategy was a good strategy (albeit in a far more extreme fashion -- if only they'd have taken Porzingis over Okafor...). I assume you believe that these preferences should removed, then, since it looks like we agree that there's no way to stop this so-called gaming. I think you're wrong, but I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.

Posted by cwisniewski on 2/15/2017 12:13:00 PM (view original):
We are currently testing a change in which the tempo preference will now look at the average tempo that you have set to use throughout the season, similar to how the offense and defense preferences currently work.

We also are changing the Paint offense and Perimeter offense preferences to be much more intelligent.

To be clear, we don't know what CS/developers will ultimately do. They've recognized the issue, and they've told us they are testing something. That doesn't mean it will happen in that way. I, for one, have urged them to consider a different solution.

If they end up making two style preferences more intelligent, while making one less prominent style preference more dumb, I suppose that's progress. I hope they move toward more intelligent across the board.

I vote ax the uptempo preference and replace it with high/strong scoring/offense.

Posted by johnsensing on 2/16/2017 10:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2017 9:41:00 AM (view original):
Finally, I won't apply for sainthood. We're 8 games in. I've got 9 or 10 potential recruits at Good for Paint O. We're actually getting better at making 3s. There is the internal conflict of shooting them as I don't expect a post-season bid(RPI 161). A couple of unexpected losses will make the decision for me.

I don't think that decision should be there. Unless you feel that the Sixers did the right thing, you'd expect sports teams to do their best to win each game.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. If you're not making the postseason (or even if you are), why not up your chances of getting recruits? Seems like good strategy -- just like the Sixers' strategy was a good strategy (albeit in a far more extreme fashion -- if only they'd have taken Porzingis over Okafor...). I assume you believe that these preferences should removed, then, since it looks like we agree that there's no way to stop this so-called gaming. I think you're wrong, but I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.

Yes, we'll disagree and, no, we won't convince the other to change their mind.

I don't think the preferences should be removed. I just think they should be adjusted so they can't be gamed. Paint/Perimeter is pretty easy. Firing up 3s and missing will get you Perimeter. Create a "block" so there must be some sort of conversion % of those 3s(conference/world average?). Tempo is far more complicated and I'm absolutely clueless on a fix.

I did not like the Sixers strategy nor did the NBA. That's why a "fix" has been discussed. Much like I don't like the way preferences can be manipulated so easily in this game.

And thanks for not being one of the "angry" people. It's virtually impossible to have a legit discussion in this forum as so many become angry immediately if you have an opposing viewpoint.

Posted by Benis on 2/16/2017 10:40:00 AM (view original):
I vote ax the uptempo preference and replace it with high/strong scoring/offense.

+1 to uptempo us a fastbreak offense... strong offense would be like I will run my offense so fast you will get dizzy.