WIS, please fix the beginning of phase 2 Topic

Posted by Benis on 2/18/2017 9:05:00 AM (view original):
I'm totally okay with a random roll, as long as the percentages make sense.
Yup. I refer everyone to this thread as an example of percentages that don't make sense.

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=499931
2/18/2017 9:14 AM
Posted by Benis on 2/18/2017 9:04:00 AM (view original):
3 openings to 5 openings is
14k vs 21k

Yes, significant. But it's not like in 2.0 when teams would have quadruple the funds.

And yeah sure, you can put in 20k while another coach put in 18k and one of you will lose. That's the risk you're taking and if you get burned then you may not want to do it anymore.

From a pure strategy standpoint, this seems more strategic (at least to me) than - you send 20 HVs and I send 20HVs and we'll see what happens. That's what it feels like sometimes.
I could see two primary strategies come into play if caps were eliminated. If my idea with walkons was implemented, the strategy would be very interesting here.

1) Most coaches would first off probably decide to go all-in on top-notch recruits, knowing that losing battles would give them decent enough walkons

2) Some savvy coaches would say "forget that" and go for mid-level recruits with high potential that are more winnable. They would have less walkons. They could play the game at a strategy that utilized their depth advantages as well.

I don't see how eliminating caps would hurt DII or DIII because honestly Bemidji St. and DIII Union should not be beating D1 schools for recruits when the D1 schools show any level of effort at all. Is there something I'm missing?
2/18/2017 9:21 AM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/18/2017 9:03:00 AM (view original):
2 and 3 fix the problem, IMO


We've been saying this for months, I am not sure why they haven't addressed it. Either they aren't listening or don't think it's an issue.
Agree completely with this. Can't believe this hasn't been fixed yet - don't think anyone except spud thinks these are bad ideas.
2/18/2017 10:25 AM
My thinking on the HV and CV cap has always been that I like it, but maybe the cap should be raised a little. I do like the fact that a team with one opening can compete evenly with a team with 6 openings. But maybe the cap should go to 25 or 30 HVs. However, that would really hurt the teams that want to try to recruit a long distance, which I think is one of the nice things about the new version. In 2.0 I almost exclusively stayed under 200 miles. In 3.0 with my Hawaii team, I am actually able to compete for good recruits on the mainland by going all in, knowing that the most anyone can do is 20 HVs.
2/18/2017 11:23 AM
Posted by chapelhillne on 2/18/2017 11:23:00 AM (view original):
My thinking on the HV and CV cap has always been that I like it, but maybe the cap should be raised a little. I do like the fact that a team with one opening can compete evenly with a team with 6 openings. But maybe the cap should go to 25 or 30 HVs. However, that would really hurt the teams that want to try to recruit a long distance, which I think is one of the nice things about the new version. In 2.0 I almost exclusively stayed under 200 miles. In 3.0 with my Hawaii team, I am actually able to compete for good recruits on the mainland by going all in, knowing that the most anyone can do is 20 HVs.
As I told you Chapel, if ap value is what it is, one scholly team can't compete.
2/18/2017 11:26 AM
Posted by chapelhillne on 2/18/2017 11:23:00 AM (view original):
My thinking on the HV and CV cap has always been that I like it, but maybe the cap should be raised a little. I do like the fact that a team with one opening can compete evenly with a team with 6 openings. But maybe the cap should go to 25 or 30 HVs. However, that would really hurt the teams that want to try to recruit a long distance, which I think is one of the nice things about the new version. In 2.0 I almost exclusively stayed under 200 miles. In 3.0 with my Hawaii team, I am actually able to compete for good recruits on the mainland by going all in, knowing that the most anyone can do is 20 HVs.
I understand why there's a debate on the cap. It's not cut and dry. Maybe raising it without eliminating it would help. You and benis bring up excellent opposing points. A compromise might actually be the answer here - a raise on the cap but not a complete elimination.

What do you think of the other issues I brought up? I feel like some of them are glaringly obvious.
2/18/2017 11:26 AM
Posted by zorzii on 2/18/2017 8:13:00 AM (view original):
I think it's a solid point Bunch. But I would cap D3 recruiting to D2, so battles for recruits get heated and it stops being a last day , 2nd session, D1 signings, which gives too much importance to location.
Could you clarify this more? Not really sure what you're saying here, zorzii.
2/18/2017 11:29 AM
If a D1 coach loses battles right before Recruiting Period II, there is no recovery if they aren’t prepared. Here is why- it's basically impossible to find new recruits to target if you haven’t done enough scouting, so you are forced to scout and prepare alternative options if you don’t want walk-ons. If you do take on new recruits that are completely un-targeted because you didn’t scout enough, they might be recruits that are below the quality you want, which is why coaches need to be prepared with back-ups.
“This is the problem:
In the first cycle of phase II, every half decent recruit that is not about to sign with another D1 team is labeled as "moderate" by a DII school who has been waiting until phase II to sign their guys.”
Just another unintended consequence of Seble’s red light. It doesn’t work for the D2 schools, it doesn’t work for the D1 schools it was intended to protect, it doesn’t work for the D3 schools thrown into chaos on the last day of recruiting, it simply doesn’t work at any level and must be removed.

I understand this is not the pet idea of some of the long-time coaches, but I look at it from the point of view of what helps the game top to bottom, not just my teams. It is easy because I have teams in various divisions.

I saw this in another thread, and it is well stated: "I mean - no game is fun when you can't realistically win because vet coaches have been hogging the A+ schools for 70+ seasons in a game that was basically a math equation. I don't think that's necessarily entitlement......since it's a game, players must feel like there's a realistic chance to win."
2/18/2017 12:37 PM (edited)
Posted by CoachSpud on 2/18/2017 12:37:00 PM (view original):
If a D1 coach loses battles right before Recruiting Period II, there is no recovery if they aren’t prepared. Here is why- it's basically impossible to find new recruits to target if you haven’t done enough scouting, so you are forced to scout and prepare alternative options if you don’t want walk-ons. If you do take on new recruits that are completely un-targeted because you didn’t scout enough, they might be recruits that are below the quality you want, which is why coaches need to be prepared with back-ups.
“This is the problem:
In the first cycle of phase II, every half decent recruit that is not about to sign with another D1 team is labeled as "moderate" by a DII school who has been waiting until phase II to sign their guys.”
Just another unintended consequence of Seble’s red light. It doesn’t work for the D2 schools, it doesn’t work for the D1 schools it was intended to protect, it doesn’t work for the D3 schools thrown into chaos on the last day of recruiting, it simply doesn’t work at any level and must be removed.

I understand this is not the pet idea of some of the long-time coaches, but I look at it from the point of view of what helps the game top to bottom, not just my teams. It is easy because I have teams in various divisions.

I saw this in another thread, and it is well stated: "I mean - no game is fun when you can't realistically win because vet coaches have been hogging the A+ schools for 70+ seasons in a game that was basically a math equation. I don't think that's necessarily entitlement......since it's a game, players must feel like there's a realistic chance to win."
Spud, this is not about scouting, or being prepared with backups. I always have backups, and I always scout heavy. I assume the majority of d1 coaches do the same. I pretty much have all of D1 scouted well enough to know who is worthwhile.

I will re-state the specific problem - a mid to high-level D1 can't beat a DII or DIII school for a backup D1 level recruit if the DII or DIII school has been latched to them for a while, and the mid to high level D1 jumps on them at the beginning of the 2nd cycle. 9.9 times out of 10, the recruit immediately signs with the DII or DIII recruit even if a A+ prestige coach is talking to them and even promising them playing time.

It's a glitch. While it benefits DII teams (including mine), it does so completely unrealistically. Options #2 and #3 on my list would fix that, Option #5 could fix that but would possibly cause other unintended problems.

I made that statement that you quoted because 2.0 was too lopsided in favor of the A+ prestige D1 coaches. I stand by that. I think what we have now is a overcorrection.

The 2nd phase of recruiting in 3.0 is just generally frustrating for everyone in D1. It feels mostly pointless. It's not even a competitive balance issue, its a "not fun to have random chance be a huge factor in your team's fate" issue. Oh, and there's no realism at all in a recruit turning down a DI school that visited the home and offered minutes for a DII school that put in more effort. None.

If you are concerned with D1 coaches picking off DII recruits in phase 2, just remember, DII coaches don't compete against DI coaches for wins, so there's no opportunity lost for them if they can't sneak by and get the #80 overall player in the nation easily....all DII coaches will be in that same boat. And DII and DIII coaches would still have that opportunity to get those high-level recriots with these changes, it would just be tougher (and that should be tough).

I like a lot of things about 3.0. I think a lot of aspects are a big improvement from 2.0. This gets fixed and I would think that a majority of coaches on all levels would mostly be happy with the game.
2/18/2017 1:17 PM
"DII coaches don't compete against DI coaches for wins, so there's no opportunity lost for them if they can't sneak by and get the #80 overall player in the nation easily....all DII coaches will be in that same boat. And DII and DIII coaches would still have that opportunity to get those high-level recriots with these changes, it would just be tougher (and that should be tough). "

Bingo.
2/18/2017 1:20 PM
"I will re-state the specific problem - a mid to high-level D1 can't beat a DII or DIII school for a backup D1 level recruit if the DII or DIII school has been latched to them for a while, and the mid to high level D1 jumps on them at the beginning of the 2nd cycle."??

Okay, thanks. I will make a restatement as well ... a school that has been consistently and strongly recruiting a player ... OR a school that tries to jump in at the last minute ... which one deserves the recruit? The coach who intelligently pursued the recruit throughout the scouting and recruiting process, or the johnny-come-lately? Only a johnny-come-lately with a massive sense of entitlement would say that a coach who had done nothing wrong should be bumped aside.
2/18/2017 3:19 PM
Posted by CoachSpud on 2/18/2017 3:19:00 PM (view original):
"I will re-state the specific problem - a mid to high-level D1 can't beat a DII or DIII school for a backup D1 level recruit if the DII or DIII school has been latched to them for a while, and the mid to high level D1 jumps on them at the beginning of the 2nd cycle."??

Okay, thanks. I will make a restatement as well ... a school that has been consistently and strongly recruiting a player ... OR a school that tries to jump in at the last minute ... which one deserves the recruit? The coach who intelligently pursued the recruit throughout the scouting and recruiting process, or the johnny-come-lately? Only a johnny-come-lately with a massive sense of entitlement would say that a coach who had done nothing wrong should be bumped aside.
If the johnny come lately school that jumps in at the last minute is a D1 school (especially one with good prestige that has been successful in D1) and the school that has been consistently recruiting the player is a DII or DIII school, I believe that the D1 school should win the recruit. That is because in the same situation, the D1 school would land the recruit 100 out of 100 times in real life, even if the DII or DIII coach "deserves" the recruit. I prefer a game that makes some level of logical realistic sense as it pertains to college basketball. When DIII Union beats UCONN for a recruit, that does not make sense.

In the words of Clint Eastwood...... "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it".
2/18/2017 8:43 PM (edited)
Posted by bbunch on 2/18/2017 8:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by CoachSpud on 2/18/2017 3:19:00 PM (view original):
"I will re-state the specific problem - a mid to high-level D1 can't beat a DII or DIII school for a backup D1 level recruit if the DII or DIII school has been latched to them for a while, and the mid to high level D1 jumps on them at the beginning of the 2nd cycle."??

Okay, thanks. I will make a restatement as well ... a school that has been consistently and strongly recruiting a player ... OR a school that tries to jump in at the last minute ... which one deserves the recruit? The coach who intelligently pursued the recruit throughout the scouting and recruiting process, or the johnny-come-lately? Only a johnny-come-lately with a massive sense of entitlement would say that a coach who had done nothing wrong should be bumped aside.
If the johnny come lately school that jumps in at the last minute is a D1 school (especially one with good prestige that has been successful in D1) and the school that has been consistently recruiting the player is a DII or DIII school, I believe that the D1 school should win the recruit. That is because in the same situation, the D1 school would land the recruit 100 out of 100 times in real life, even if the DII or DIII coach "deserves" the recruit. I prefer a game that makes some level of logical realistic sense as it pertains to college basketball. When DIII Union beats UCONN for a recruit, that does not make sense.

In the words of Clint Eastwood...... "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it".
and the Union coach who won even agreed that it doesn't make sense. So the statement about johnny come lately's sense of entitlement and only they would agree with the result is 100% incorrect.
2/18/2017 8:53 PM
Okay, thanks. I will make a restatement as well ... a school that has been consistently and strongly recruiting a player ... OR a school that tries to jump in at the last minute ... which one deserves the recruit? The coach who intelligently pursued the recruit throughout the scouting and recruiting process, or the johnny-come-lately? Only a johnny-come-lately with a massive sense of entitlement would say that a coach who had done nothing wrong should be bumped aside.
If the johnny come lately school that jumps in at the last minute is a D1 school (especially one with good prestige that has been successful in D1) and the school that has been consistently recruiting the player is a DII or DIII school, I believe that the D1 school should win the recruit.

Okay, the sense of entitlement overcomes good recruiting for you. Fair enough, I'm sure you are not alone in that. For me, that makes a bad game and I think good recruiting should overcome the sense of entitlement every time.
2/18/2017 9:46 PM
Posted by bbunch on 2/18/2017 9:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 2/18/2017 9:05:00 AM (view original):
I'm totally okay with a random roll, as long as the percentages make sense.
Yup. I refer everyone to this thread as an example of percentages that don't make sense.

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=499931
Three way battle ... school with a 21% likelihood wound up winning. Since a 21% chance is still a chance, there was nothing there that didn't make sense once you actually looked into it.
2/18/2017 9:49 PM
◂ Prev 1234 Next ▸
WIS, please fix the beginning of phase 2 Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.