Posted by zeldafan on 3/21/2017 7:18:00 AM (view original):
Harden with big defensesive play, dribbles full length of the court for the layin.

Harden gets game MVP.

Westbrook puts-up "only" 15-8-7 (in 27 minutes) so OKC gets killed.

Most VALUABLE to his team is Westbrook.

The Cavs are terrible when James isn't on the floor, even in games when James plays. James is having perhaps his best statistical season ever, setting a career high in both rpg and apg with a top 3 shooting season.

James is the best player in the world and he is the most valuable player in the league as evidenced by just how bad Cleveland is when he isn't on the floor.

James has Love and Irving - Westbrook has nobody even remotely close to either.

Posted by all3 on 3/21/2017 11:26:00 AM (view original):
James has Love and Irving - Westbrook has nobody even remotely close to either.

Doesn't matter. Look at the on/off numbers. James has by far the biggest difference of any player, which makes him the most valuable.

Posted by moranis on 3/21/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 3/21/2017 11:26:00 AM (view original):
James has Love and Irving - Westbrook has nobody even remotely close to either.

Doesn't matter. Look at the on/off numbers. James has by far the biggest difference of any player, which makes him the most valuable.

On/off is a worthless stat. A **** player on the court with 4 good teammates is going to have a better on/off than a great player on the court with 4 lesser players. James plays with two of the best players in the League, so his on/off should be much better that Westbrook, who plays with 4 average at best players.

Thunder would have like 5 wins without Russ. Cavs, 30-40 would be my guess without James depending on injuries.

Best player doesn't win MVP every year. Never has. At some point, they decide to start giving it to other players. That happened a long time ago with Lebron. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's the truth.

Westbrook is having a historically insane year. He deserves it imo. The Rockets, the Cavs, the Thunder & the Spurs would all be much worse teams without their mvp candidates. Cavs might still make the playoffs. Spurs, too. They are all immensely valuable to their squads.

Posted by all3 on 3/21/2017 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moranis on 3/21/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 3/21/2017 11:26:00 AM (view original):
James has Love and Irving - Westbrook has nobody even remotely close to either.

Doesn't matter. Look at the on/off numbers. James has by far the biggest difference of any player, which makes him the most valuable.

On/off is a worthless stat. A **** player on the court with 4 good teammates is going to have a better on/off than a great player on the court with 4 lesser players. James plays with two of the best players in the League, so his on/off should be much better that Westbrook, who plays with 4 average at best players.

But if that player with **** teammates isn't on the court, wouldn't they be even worse without him. I mean on/off absolutely shows a players value to the team. For example, when Harden isn't in the game, the Rockets are only like a point or two worse. When James isn't in the game the Cavs are something like 10+ points worse. This isn't hockey where you do entire line shifts.

Look at the back to back losses the Cavs had against the Pistons and Heat a couple of weeks back. James played 39 minutes against the Pistons and was +18. In the 9 minutes he was on the bench the Cavs were -23. The game before against the Heat, James again played 39 minutes and was +14. In the 9 minutes he was on the bench the Cavs were -22. Even the last game against the Lakers that the Cavs won by 5, James was +12 in 38 minutes and the Cavs were -7 in the other 10 minutes. How about the Jazz game, +14 in 38 minutes, Cavs were -6 in the 10 minutes on the bench. There are certainly games where that type of stuff isn't always the case, but they are rare.

James is not only the best player, he is the most valuable as the Cavs are pretty terrible when he isn't in the game.

Your numbers may indicate that Harden's sub is a better player than James' sub, but they say nothing about the 2 players themselves.

Posted by all3 on 3/22/2017 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Your numbers may indicate that Harden's sub is a better player than James' sub, but they say nothing about the 2 players themselves.

They may not, but James is better than Harden, because there are two sides of the court and Harden is still a negative defender. Which is also probably why the discrepancy is so great when James leaves the floor. Harden is having a fine season, but James is the MVP this year. Pretty much all of the major metrics bear that out (and it helps that James is still the best player in basketball).

James literally takes nights off. So far, he's missed 6 games this season. Harden & Westbrook have combined to have taken 0 off. I think Jordan missed all of 7 games from 1986 through 1993 (and was suspended one of those). Just food for thought.

Mvp showdown today between harden and Westbrook!

It depends on what your definition of MVP is. Best player this season? Lebron. Most Valuable to their team? Westbrook. Most Valuable to the whole league? A combination of the two? James Harden. It's hard to define who should get it.

MVP James Harden in action tonight vs Golden Warriors!

and he loses!!!