Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

This is surprising to me. Bringing 6 guys to the game, and 5 still play.

i've brought probably 10 guys to this game, and none play. And i've got friends that I thought were SURE to love it. But didn't, for various reasons. It takes a certain type of person to stay and get hooked. For us that are here, its easy to understand. But it just doesn't seem to grab some coaches.

5 of 6 is a great outcome. Find more friends!

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/12/2019 4:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

This is surprising to me. Bringing 6 guys to the game, and 5 still play.

i've brought probably 10 guys to this game, and none play. And i've got friends that I thought were SURE to love it. But didn't, for various reasons. It takes a certain type of person to stay and get hooked. For us that are here, its easy to understand. But it just doesn't seem to grab some coaches.

5 of 6 is a great outcome. Find more friends!

Every friend I've ever tried to bring into the game quit because they didn't want to pay.

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/11/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

Marketing is always kicked around as the solution and it's only partly true.

They've done marketing before, guys. Remember when they had a big FREEHD campaign? Remember when D3 populations in a couple worlds jumped to ~300 users? Remember how those people were ghosting by mid season and didn't sign up for another season?

Marketing is only going to be successful if you fix the new user retention issues. Otherwise you will just see a temporary bump in populations and then it'll be back to 'normal'. Not only is the ROI on this type of investment very poor for WIS, it's just not a sustainable solution because the game is so flawed right now for new users.

That's not really marketing though. That's a quickie promotion offer to those who are already aware of the game. It does nothing to expose the game to new users unaware of it's existence.

They did do some MKT with it. They had a couple ads during some BE games on Fox Sports.

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/11/2019 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Make it easier to move up. No other fix matters.

Most noobs bounce as soon as they figure out how long it will take to get to the bottom of D1. True for both HD and GD.

And seble is wasting all his limited time for these games on spiffying up recruiting. Mind-boggling.

That doesn't fix anything. Assuming that is the reason noobs would bounce right away, then you can also assume they only want to get to D1 quickly to get to the top teams everyone knows, such as a Duke or UNC. Someone is not rushing to get to D1 so they can be UC Riverside. Once they realize those teams aren't opening up anytime soon, they would bounce anyways.

You're correct on the recruiting issue, because recruiting was never the issue with the game. It shouldn't have been drastically changed like it was. Minor tweaks, sure, but the major changes drove the game into significantly reduced populations.

All of this is wrong.

First paragraph, you’re using false equivalence and really poor reasoning. The game rightly doesn’t care about players not interested because they can’t start at Duke. Making it a reasonable amount of time to getting to a mid-major, or a low level Big 6 program from where they can *compete* with a Duke, or build their own Duke, that’s the sweet spot.

Second paragraph, recruiting absolutely needed to be rebuilt. It was unrealistic, gameable, and just all around bad. The old version was best characterized by forum vets telling new D1 folks they should set their alarms to wake up in the middle of the night, and/or illegally collude with others if they wanted to break into the top 20 cartel. The mistake seble made was in not fixing jobs and hiring to alleviate the issue in the first paragraph.

You are right that ultimately people leave because they don’t value the game enough to pay for it. Reducing the time and monetary cost to get people where they imagine themselves when they sign up is where effort should be focused at this point.

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 7:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/11/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

Marketing is always kicked around as the solution and it's only partly true.

They've done marketing before, guys. Remember when they had a big FREEHD campaign? Remember when D3 populations in a couple worlds jumped to ~300 users? Remember how those people were ghosting by mid season and didn't sign up for another season?

Marketing is only going to be successful if you fix the new user retention issues. Otherwise you will just see a temporary bump in populations and then it'll be back to 'normal'. Not only is the ROI on this type of investment very poor for WIS, it's just not a sustainable solution because the game is so flawed right now for new users.

That's not really marketing though. That's a quickie promotion offer to those who are already aware of the game. It does nothing to expose the game to new users unaware of it's existence.

They did do some MKT with it. They had a couple ads during some BE games on Fox Sports.

Yeah they filled a couple D3 worlds to 100% right after 3.0 launched, via good marketing. Almost all the new players left immediately after one season. The marketing didn't matter because the product remained flawed.

Good on Nick for finding friends who stayed, but that is the exception to the rule. I agree with shoe that 3.0 recruiting made some needed changes, but I'm glad we also agree that's not what will bring in and retain new users.

WIS's HD intro page teases the opportunity to coach big D1 schools, without mentioning the part where you'll spend 5+ seasons and $60+ toiling in D2 before you can even sniff low D1. WIS knows where people want to be, but they make it way too hard to reach the game they know most folks actually want to play.

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/12/2019 8:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 7:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/11/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

Marketing is always kicked around as the solution and it's only partly true.

They've done marketing before, guys. Remember when they had a big FREEHD campaign? Remember when D3 populations in a couple worlds jumped to ~300 users? Remember how those people were ghosting by mid season and didn't sign up for another season?

Marketing is only going to be successful if you fix the new user retention issues. Otherwise you will just see a temporary bump in populations and then it'll be back to 'normal'. Not only is the ROI on this type of investment very poor for WIS, it's just not a sustainable solution because the game is so flawed right now for new users.

That's not really marketing though. That's a quickie promotion offer to those who are already aware of the game. It does nothing to expose the game to new users unaware of it's existence.

They did do some MKT with it. They had a couple ads during some BE games on Fox Sports.

Yeah they filled a couple D3 worlds to 100% right after 3.0 launched, via good marketing. Almost all the new players left immediately after one season. The marketing didn't matter because the product remained flawed.

Good on Nick for finding friends who stayed, but that is the exception to the rule. I agree with shoe that 3.0 recruiting made some needed changes, but I'm glad we also agree that's not what will bring in and retain new users.

WIS's HD intro page teases the opportunity to coach big D1 schools, without mentioning the part where you'll spend 5+ seasons and $60+ toiling in D2 before you can even sniff low D1. WIS knows where people want to be, but they make it way too hard to reach the game they know most folks actually want to play.

I don't necessarily agree that fixing Jobs would totally fix the issue but it would definitely help.

But if that IS what you think is the problem then the recruiting changes with 3.0 made this issue WORSE. Now you can't recruit before your first season or you are behind the 8 ball for recruiting when changing jobs. But that's what makes sense to Seble because 'it's realistic'.... Okay.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/2/2019 7:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 4/27/2017 10:41:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/27/2017 8:58:00 AM (view original):
The game the grognards liked wasn't popular. WIS was losing customers every year. They tried to do something to keep player retention.

You can hate the changes, you can blame participation trophies, you tell people they aren't as smart as you but in the end the opinion that many of you had was the minority.

It isn't a coincidence that the people most upset about the changes are the people that mastered the old system. Hungry people have revolutions......

I suppose you could call me a grognard, because I'm still playing Civilization V. But it's not because I'm not excited for the new version, it's because my old Mac probably can't handle it, and I can't justify a new computer just for a new game.

I’m still playing Civ V on that same old Mac.

I still play CIV II from time to time, lol.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/12/2019 7:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/11/2019 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Make it easier to move up. No other fix matters.

Most noobs bounce as soon as they figure out how long it will take to get to the bottom of D1. True for both HD and GD.

And seble is wasting all his limited time for these games on spiffying up recruiting. Mind-boggling.

That doesn't fix anything. Assuming that is the reason noobs would bounce right away, then you can also assume they only want to get to D1 quickly to get to the top teams everyone knows, such as a Duke or UNC. Someone is not rushing to get to D1 so they can be UC Riverside. Once they realize those teams aren't opening up anytime soon, they would bounce anyways.

You're correct on the recruiting issue, because recruiting was never the issue with the game. It shouldn't have been drastically changed like it was. Minor tweaks, sure, but the major changes drove the game into significantly reduced populations.

All of this is wrong.

First paragraph, you’re using false equivalence and really poor reasoning. The game rightly doesn’t care about players not interested because they can’t start at Duke. Making it a reasonable amount of time to getting to a mid-major, or a low level Big 6 program from where they can *compete* with a Duke, or build their own Duke, that’s the sweet spot.

Second paragraph, recruiting absolutely needed to be rebuilt. It was unrealistic, gameable, and just all around bad. The old version was best characterized by forum vets telling new D1 folks they should set their alarms to wake up in the middle of the night, and/or illegally collude with others if they wanted to break into the top 20 cartel. The mistake seble made was in not fixing jobs and hiring to alleviate the issue in the first paragraph.

You are right that ultimately people leave because they don’t value the game enough to pay for it. Reducing the time and monetary cost to get people where they imagine themselves when they sign up is where effort should be focused at this point.

It's ok for an assumption to be made that the time it takes to get to DI is the problem, but it's false equivalence because i say the time it takes to get to DI is irrelevant if they can't get to the top schools? Tell me then, if noobs could start in DI on day 1, would that fix the problem? Would they be happy knowing it might be 20 seasons before UNC or Duke opens up, if ever at all? If your answer is no, then it is not a false equivalency. If the answer is yes, then joining DI was never the issue, and starting a dynasty at any school would be suitable since big name schools don't matter.

Your statement on the second paragraph is false and only sounds bitter due to what you believed negatively happened against you at some point. I produced lots of high end teams without waking up in the middle of the night and without colluding. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but explain to me how the current system would be any different? If me and my colluding partner were on 2 guys, we could easily just make a deal with each other to let one go. Additionally the new system could be just as easily played, by the sharing of data. especially in the current environment where scouting funds may be limited.

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/12/2019 8:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 7:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/11/2019 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

Marketing is always kicked around as the solution and it's only partly true.

They've done marketing before, guys. Remember when they had a big FREEHD campaign? Remember when D3 populations in a couple worlds jumped to ~300 users? Remember how those people were ghosting by mid season and didn't sign up for another season?

Marketing is only going to be successful if you fix the new user retention issues. Otherwise you will just see a temporary bump in populations and then it'll be back to 'normal'. Not only is the ROI on this type of investment very poor for WIS, it's just not a sustainable solution because the game is so flawed right now for new users.

That's not really marketing though. That's a quickie promotion offer to those who are already aware of the game. It does nothing to expose the game to new users unaware of it's existence.

They did do some MKT with it. They had a couple ads during some BE games on Fox Sports.

Yeah they filled a couple D3 worlds to 100% right after 3.0 launched, via good marketing. Almost all the new players left immediately after one season. The marketing didn't matter because the product remained flawed.

Good on Nick for finding friends who stayed, but that is the exception to the rule. I agree with shoe that 3.0 recruiting made some needed changes, but I'm glad we also agree that's not what will bring in and retain new users.

WIS's HD intro page teases the opportunity to coach big D1 schools, without mentioning the part where you'll spend 5+ seasons and $60+ toiling in D2 before you can even sniff low D1. WIS knows where people want to be, but they make it way too hard to reach the game they know most folks actually want to play.

What world filled 100% D3? Can someone verify that?

DIII worlds were NEVER filled with 3.0

Even in 2.0 DIII worlds NEVER filled with free give aways, they just had a large increase. We haven't have a 100% DIII filled world since the final current worlds were created.

I can't find the Allen numbers but I thought it got to mid 300s. Wooden got to 345 D3 users around Dec 2016.

So maybe not quite 100% but that's 90% full. Close enough.

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 10:42:00 AM (view original):
I can't find the Allen numbers but I thought it got to mid 300s. Wooden got to 345 D3 users around Dec 2016.

So maybe not quite 100% but that's 90% full. Close enough.

Yeah, I thought it was 100%, but I trust your numbers more than my memory. Mea culpa.

95% is still a lot of new users. WIS got them in the door.

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/12/2019 11:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 10:42:00 AM (view original):
I can't find the Allen numbers but I thought it got to mid 300s. Wooden got to 345 D3 users around Dec 2016.

So maybe not quite 100% but that's 90% full. Close enough.

Yeah, I thought it was 100%, but I trust your numbers more than my memory. Mea culpa.

95% is still a lot of new users. WIS got them in the door.

The problem as always with FREEHD, is how many are current users just making a new ID. With that said, even a small amount of marketing to an external population could bring significant results. You never expect all of those to stick around, but if you maintain that minor marketing, these worlds could remain fairly full if even a small percentage of each new batch sticks around.

The key to retaining coaches in my experience is having an open forum to ask questions about how the game works. The 6 of us started a groupme text conversation that we ask questions on and get coaching tips from one another. This app was crucial in the first 10 seasons of our WIS careers. This game has a lot of weird rules and tendencies that arent outlined anywhere other than forums and what people have experienced. I think that is what makes it hard to retain customers. You get a d3 team and then you just have to figure everything else out on your own. I remember reading for days after i started playing just to see if i could understand all of the pieces of the game. For how simple the game seems now after 2years of playing it is actually pretty hard for someone to just pick up and understand.

D2 and D3 look more and more the same. Check IBA brackets and seeds, some #1 D3 teams up to about #8 would be competing in D2 with all other teams. The new recruiting did this. I don’t see D3 teams on my recruits but they found other location or other strats that work pretty well.