Posted by rugburn on 3/12/2019 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/12/2019 11:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 3/12/2019 10:42:00 AM (view original):
I can't find the Allen numbers but I thought it got to mid 300s. Wooden got to 345 D3 users around Dec 2016.

So maybe not quite 100% but that's 90% full. Close enough.

Yeah, I thought it was 100%, but I trust your numbers more than my memory. Mea culpa.

95% is still a lot of new users. WIS got them in the door.

The problem as always with FREEHD, is how many are current users just making a new ID. With that said, even a small amount of marketing to an external population could bring significant results. You never expect all of those to stick around, but if you maintain that minor marketing, these worlds could remain fairly full if even a small percentage of each new batch sticks around.

whatifsports.com/hoops appears to still be active. Tell yo friends.

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/12/2019 4:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

This is surprising to me. Bringing 6 guys to the game, and 5 still play.

i've brought probably 10 guys to this game, and none play. And i've got friends that I thought were SURE to love it. But didn't, for various reasons. It takes a certain type of person to stay and get hooked. For us that are here, its easy to understand. But it just doesn't seem to grab some coaches.

5 of 6 is a great outcome. Find more friends!

After I joined I recruited 3 friends to join. 2 had also been avid 2k8 players, as well. Unfortunate, all three quit shortly after 3.0 because they all hated the new recruiting system.

Posted by gdog13cavs on 3/13/2019 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/12/2019 4:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

This is surprising to me. Bringing 6 guys to the game, and 5 still play.

i've brought probably 10 guys to this game, and none play. And i've got friends that I thought were SURE to love it. But didn't, for various reasons. It takes a certain type of person to stay and get hooked. For us that are here, its easy to understand. But it just doesn't seem to grab some coaches.

5 of 6 is a great outcome. Find more friends!

After I joined I recruited 3 friends to join. 2 had also been avid 2k8 players, as well. Unfortunate, all three quit shortly after 3.0 because they all hated the new recruiting system.

Was 2K8 a game where you could play Dynasty mode online against others? What I remember of that game, recruiting was pretty easy, and there were a *ton* of high level players. It was really a different kind of animal, I would not expect most of those players to enjoy this particular kind of game played in a world against lots of other people who are targeting the same kinds of commodities.

Posted by zorzii on 3/12/2019 3:13:00 PM (view original):
D2 and D3 look more and more the same. Check IBA brackets and seeds, some #1 D3 teams up to about #8 would be competing in D2 with all other teams. The new recruiting did this. I don’t see D3 teams on my recruits but they found other location or other strats that work pretty well.

My thoughts as well, which imo is not a good thing. The top DIII team in Tark had a higher rating (i know ratings don't matter, but for the sake of comparison it's important) than all the DII teams and would make a deep run into the DII NT. A DIII team should barely be able to make a DII NT if able to make the NT at all, let alone be able to win it. New guys are supposed to compete with that i guess though. Sounds like a fun environment to learn in.

Posted by rugburn on 3/14/2019 12:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/12/2019 3:13:00 PM (view original):
D2 and D3 look more and more the same. Check IBA brackets and seeds, some #1 D3 teams up to about #8 would be competing in D2 with all other teams. The new recruiting did this. I don’t see D3 teams on my recruits but they found other location or other strats that work pretty well.

My thoughts as well, which imo is not a good thing. The top DIII team in Tark had a higher rating (i know ratings don't matter, but for the sake of comparison it's important) than all the DII teams and would make a deep run into the DII NT. A DIII team should barely be able to make a DII NT if able to make the NT at all, let alone be able to win it. New guys are supposed to compete with that i guess though. Sounds like a fun environment to learn in.

Bad argument. D3 has never been a good environment to learn in. The best D3 teams have always been head and shoulders better than the bottom 50% of D2 teams. If the game is going to allow veterans to park in D3, D3 is going to be dominated by veterans, and the people with veteran mentors. End of story.

”Cap divisions” is a solution in search of a problem, and always has been, put forward by folks who just want teams to stay in their place. They don’t want to worry about teams “under” them reaching up, because they want those backup options in place without ever having to invest in them. They want the reward of loading up resources on top players without the risk of coming up empty.

Make D3 a free to play sandbox with no credit, and then cap away. But no one should be rewarded or feel accomplished for dominating a division where new players are forced to play, and can’t consistently compete for the top commodities, because of the inherent advantages vets have in experience, prestige, and built up preference advantages.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/14/2019 12:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/12/2019 3:13:00 PM (view original):
D2 and D3 look more and more the same. Check IBA brackets and seeds, some #1 D3 teams up to about #8 would be competing in D2 with all other teams. The new recruiting did this. I don’t see D3 teams on my recruits but they found other location or other strats that work pretty well.

My thoughts as well, which imo is not a good thing. The top DIII team in Tark had a higher rating (i know ratings don't matter, but for the sake of comparison it's important) than all the DII teams and would make a deep run into the DII NT. A DIII team should barely be able to make a DII NT if able to make the NT at all, let alone be able to win it. New guys are supposed to compete with that i guess though. Sounds like a fun environment to learn in.

Bad argument. D3 has never been a good environment to learn in. The best D3 teams have always been head and shoulders better than the bottom 50% of D2 teams. If the game is going to allow veterans to park in D3, D3 is going to be dominated by veterans, and the people with veteran mentors. End of story.

”Cap divisions” is a solution in search of a problem, and always has been, put forward by folks who just want teams to stay in their place. They don’t want to worry about teams “under” them reaching up, because they want those backup options in place without ever having to invest in them. They want the reward of loading up resources on top players without the risk of coming up empty.

Make D3 a free to play sandbox with no credit, and then cap away. But no one should be rewarded or feel accomplished for dominating a division where new players are forced to play, and can’t consistently compete for the top commodities, because of the inherent advantages vets have in experience, prestige, and built up preference advantages.

Explain how a team with DI talent is a good learning environment for a newcomer in DIIII? DIII was a great environment to learn in. With veterans "parked", i had a wealth of knowledge to draw from. With veterans parked, there were veterans challenging each other for the top players, spreading their resources thin while i could rebuild my team with their backup options. With a cap on divisions, there was a ceiling to how wide the talent gap could be, making it easier for a newcomer to compete and reach for the same players.

Your entire argument of the inherent advantages in experience, prestige, and built up preference advantages applies far more to the current recruiting enviornment. Currently DIII is veteran coaches feeling accomplished for creating a low end DI team for newcomers to compete against.

That’s a romanticized version of the game that used to exist, and it’s not attached to reality. In reality, there was never a “cap”. There have always been pull downs and drop downs. High prestige teams had access to players that literally wouldn’t even return the phone calls or acknowledge the existence of other teams.

New players now have access to the exact quality of recruit that veterans have. They only have to know how to find them. A relatively new player (Sportsbulls) recruited one of the best players I’ve seen in D3 in one of his first seasons, in part because he was smart enough to reach out and ask questions. That’s always been the delineating factor between new players who exceed and new players who struggle, and it always will be.

Old game: Jucos logically decided not to drop far, and Sim power schools like Florida State didn't have to take 6 walk-ons while D2 humans feast.

New game: Yup.

Posted by kcsundevil on 3/14/2019 6:20:00 PM (view original):
Old game: Jucos logically decided not to drop far, and Sim power schools like Florida State didn't have to take 6 walk-ons while D2 humans feast.

New game: Yup.

Having sim schools recruit more intelligently, and having some players go juco instead of drop is a much different conversation than caps. I’m open to both, especially the latter (I doubt the former would end up being very popular in practice).

But in terms of the power gap between top D3 and new players, no it really isn’t much different. My D3 championship team beat Ohio St by 40 points in exhibition, a dozen seasons before 3.0.

ETA- it was the runner-up team a few seasons later, but still well before 3.0.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 6:47:00 PM (view original):
But in terms of the power gap between top D3 and new players, no it really isn’t much different. My D3 championship team beat Ohio St by 40 points in exhibition, a dozen seasons before 3.0.

ETA- it was the runner-up team a few seasons later, but still well before 3.0.

Shoe : He is right. Imagine a newcomer... He plays against 680-700 avg teams sometimes in D3 while before you were good at 550... Before, you needed to find fits in your lineup or strategies to win, you did not have stats everywhere. Most chose athletes, some used speedsters, others wanted top shooters, balanced lineups. Recruiting is stupid. The system is broken and that is why we are not 140-150 teams in D3 Naismith, which was profitable by the way.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/13/2019 7:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gdog13cavs on 3/13/2019 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 3/12/2019 4:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Nick_Bennett on 3/11/2019 1:47:00 PM (view original):
I think opening up a new 2 day world and doing some simple marketing during the college bball season would do wonders for this game. I had been looking for something like this for years after College hoops 2k8 was made. Nothing ever filled that void until i found WIS about 2 years ago. I didnt find an ad for this either and only 1 of my many college bball fans had heard of it before. Now 2 years later ive recruited 6 other guys to try the game and 5 still play. Marketing is the key.

This is surprising to me. Bringing 6 guys to the game, and 5 still play.

i've brought probably 10 guys to this game, and none play. And i've got friends that I thought were SURE to love it. But didn't, for various reasons. It takes a certain type of person to stay and get hooked. For us that are here, its easy to understand. But it just doesn't seem to grab some coaches.

5 of 6 is a great outcome. Find more friends!

After I joined I recruited 3 friends to join. 2 had also been avid 2k8 players, as well. Unfortunate, all three quit shortly after 3.0 because they all hated the new recruiting system.

Was 2K8 a game where you could play Dynasty mode online against others? What I remember of that game, recruiting was pretty easy, and there were a *ton* of high level players. It was really a different kind of animal, I would not expect most of those players to enjoy this particular kind of game played in a world against lots of other people who are targeting the same kinds of commodities.

2k8 Legacy mode didn't let you compete against others, but you could start at a low-level DI school, and then had to work your way up through solid scouting and recruiting, in much the same way you have to work your way up from DIII here. The patience and desire to really dig in and spend a lot of time on scouting/recruiting would often appeal to similar audiences.

Posted by zorzii on 3/14/2019 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 6:47:00 PM (view original):
But in terms of the power gap between top D3 and new players, no it really isn’t much different. My D3 championship team beat Ohio St by 40 points in exhibition, a dozen seasons before 3.0.

ETA- it was the runner-up team a few seasons later, but still well before 3.0.

Shoe : He is right. Imagine a newcomer... He plays against 680-700 avg teams sometimes in D3 while before you were good at 550... Before, you needed to find fits in your lineup or strategies to win, you did not have stats everywhere. Most chose athletes, some used speedsters, others wanted top shooters, balanced lineups. Recruiting is stupid. The system is broken and that is why we are not 140-150 teams in D3 Naismith, which was profitable by the way.

No, he’s wrong, and so are you, as you have been on this since beta. You should be honest and come out and say *why* you want caps. It’s nothing to do with new players, zorzii. You want caps because you don’t like worrying about having to invest in backups, or coming up empty. You want to swing for the fences without worrying about the consequences of striking out.

A newcomer doesn’t care what the average used to be. A newcomer doesn’t care about the overall rating number of the top teams. A newcomer cares about what it will take to get there. If it’s a game where the top teams are at 550,but the newcomer doesn’t have access to any of the best players, then caps dont benefit the newcomer. And that is, ultimately, the point of all this. Caps don’t serve newcomers, they serve the interests of folks who don’t want lower division teams competing for players they want to consider backups.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rugburn on 3/14/2019 12:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/12/2019 3:13:00 PM (view original):
D2 and D3 look more and more the same. Check IBA brackets and seeds, some #1 D3 teams up to about #8 would be competing in D2 with all other teams. The new recruiting did this. I don’t see D3 teams on my recruits but they found other location or other strats that work pretty well.

My thoughts as well, which imo is not a good thing. The top DIII team in Tark had a higher rating (i know ratings don't matter, but for the sake of comparison it's important) than all the DII teams and would make a deep run into the DII NT. A DIII team should barely be able to make a DII NT if able to make the NT at all, let alone be able to win it. New guys are supposed to compete with that i guess though. Sounds like a fun environment to learn in.

Bad argument. D3 has never been a good environment to learn in. The best D3 teams have always been head and shoulders better than the bottom 50% of D2 teams. If the game is going to allow veterans to park in D3, D3 is going to be dominated by veterans, and the people with veteran mentors. End of story.

”Cap divisions” is a solution in search of a problem, and always has been, put forward by folks who just want teams to stay in their place. They don’t want to worry about teams “under” them reaching up, because they want those backup options in place without ever having to invest in them. They want the reward of loading up resources on top players without the risk of coming up empty.

Make D3 a free to play sandbox with no credit, and then cap away. But no one should be rewarded or feel accomplished for dominating a division where new players are forced to play, and can’t consistently compete for the top commodities, because of the inherent advantages vets have in experience, prestige, and built up preference advantages.

I disagree that D3 was never a good environment in which to learn. By sheer luck, when I first started this game, I ended up at a school in Wisconsin that just happened to be right next door to the0nlyis' recently established super conference in CCIW. Needless to say, this made getting top notched local recruits incredibly difficult. However, I learned a lot by watching what the successful coaches did in that conference. After five years, I managed to make the Sweet 16, which I took as a major accomplishment given the difficulties of having to recruit in their shadow. I learned a lot over those five season regarding the intricacies of what ratings and skills mattered due to having to assemble and experiment with teams of very imperfect players.

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 8:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 3/14/2019 7:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 3/14/2019 6:47:00 PM (view original):
But in terms of the power gap between top D3 and new players, no it really isn’t much different. My D3 championship team beat Ohio St by 40 points in exhibition, a dozen seasons before 3.0.

ETA- it was the runner-up team a few seasons later, but still well before 3.0.

Shoe : He is right. Imagine a newcomer... He plays against 680-700 avg teams sometimes in D3 while before you were good at 550... Before, you needed to find fits in your lineup or strategies to win, you did not have stats everywhere. Most chose athletes, some used speedsters, others wanted top shooters, balanced lineups. Recruiting is stupid. The system is broken and that is why we are not 140-150 teams in D3 Naismith, which was profitable by the way.

No, he’s wrong, and so are you, as you have been on this since beta. You should be honest and come out and say *why* you want caps. It’s nothing to do with new players, zorzii. You want caps because you don’t like worrying about having to invest in backups, or coming up empty. You want to swing for the fences without worrying about the consequences of striking out.

A newcomer doesn’t care what the average used to be. A newcomer doesn’t care about the overall rating number of the top teams. A newcomer cares about what it will take to get there. If it’s a game where the top teams are at 550,but the newcomer doesn’t have access to any of the best players, then caps dont benefit the newcomer. And that is, ultimately, the point of all this. Caps don’t serve newcomers, they serve the interests of folks who don’t want lower division teams competing for players they want to consider backups.

Having DIII teams that are good enough to make the DI NT is just dumb. Now, if we introduced promotion and relegation like certain professional soccer leagues have, that would be interesting...