Posted by robusk on 5/24/2017 6:03:00 PM (view original):
I am planning to play this by the way. I am pretty flexible on the rules for set up. I tend to lean towards randomness to start.

Also, I think I don't give too much of a crap about trades for the initial draft (I have learned my lesson on that). However, what I don't want to see is another prog where there is too much of a cycle of really shady trades/combined with tanking. I know both are hot button issues but I have played in like every prog in the sim and some leagues get it right/other do not. It is kind of hard to say what exactly the ones who get it right are doing different though.

So, the TLDR version: I'm in. I am chill on set up. Let's not let bad ownership ruin the league.

I hope you aren't referring to me as "bad ownership" based on Zizzo's league.

I'll give it a go.

Posted by cea8010 on 5/25/2017 9:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 5/24/2017 6:03:00 PM (view original):
I am planning to play this by the way. I am pretty flexible on the rules for set up. I tend to lean towards randomness to start.

Also, I think I don't give too much of a crap about trades for the initial draft (I have learned my lesson on that). However, what I don't want to see is another prog where there is too much of a cycle of really shady trades/combined with tanking. I know both are hot button issues but I have played in like every prog in the sim and some leagues get it right/other do not. It is kind of hard to say what exactly the ones who get it right are doing different though.

So, the TLDR version: I'm in. I am chill on set up. Let's not let bad ownership ruin the league.

I hope you aren't referring to me as "bad ownership" based on Zizzo's league.

Definitely not. You are an awesome owner dude.

Posted by cjok1051 on 5/25/2017 10:27:00 AM (view original):
I'll give it a go.

And I'm out.

I'll play

*edited based on feedback*

We are about halfway full. As we get closer to having a functional group for the league, I am going to draft a league constitution, which I will base largely on the TEPL version, and make edits where needed to address this league specifically. After reading a few articles I am contemplating including the draft wheel as part of this league charter, and not the conventional lottery. However, initial feeeback has been against this method so I will go with the broad consensus if that is in fact that the normal lottery rules are ideal.

IN

Posted by jkaye24 on 5/25/2017 1:17:00 PM (view original):
We are about halfway full. As we get closer to having a functional group for the league, I am going to draft a league constitution, which I will base largely on the TEPL version, and make edits where needed to address this league specifically. After reading a few articles I am leaning heavily towards including the draft wheel as part of this league charter, and not the conventional lottery as the basis for rookies. Year one, normal lottery. After that, random wheel system that has nothing to do with team record. Will figure out fairest wheel. But this takes tanking off the board immediately and adds a unique element to this league, one based on actual discussions being taken seriously with in the inner NBA GM/media circle.

That concerns me for at least two reasons:

1) It gives owners no real power over how to turn a franchise around. Sure, tanking sucks but if an owner wants to blow up their team and take 2-4 miserably bad losing seasons to have a shot at turning it around, I feel like that's their choice.

2) It gives the possibility of powerhouse teams becoming even more powerhouse. Imagine if you will the '97 bulls ending up with the #1 pick. Hello Tim Duncan, meet Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, etc. While 1/24 isn't great odds, it could happen.

(I might misunderstand your concept of the Draft Wheel entirely, however, so more detail would be needed)

Very valid critiques and these same concerns are made by owners today and why the lottery has not been reformed by the NBA. I will take the time to outline the case for it - but if anyone hasn't id recommend googling Zach Lowes Grantland articles from 2013-14 on the wheel as well as well as this link:

https://www.google.com/amp/nba.nbcsports.com/2015/02/27/re-inventing-the-wheel-mike-zarren-presents-modified-nba-draft-lottery-reform-proposals/amp/

if we did it, it would surely be the modified version, not the original one where teams cycled thru all 30 spots over 30 years.

I will say, there is a hybrid version where you could take the reform proposal Mike Zarren outlined and then rank the teams by record within the group. So in your 97 Bulls example, the best they could pick would be 3 or 6- depending on how big the groups are. Yes, that would help them if they cycled thru a favorable draft group at that time. But it does eliminate any concerns about absolute franchise defining players from joining elite teams.

Additionally, the wheel can/will be structured to be as balanced as possible. For example, let's say in present day we draft 24 franchises, and the top 3 are Golden State, Cleveland and San Antonio. These three teams would be placed in a group that picks between 22-24 in the initial draft and would be LAST in the order to be in the group that picks 1-3. So if we had 8 groups of 3, the top 3 teams would not have a top 3 pick (the Bulls/Duncan scenario we want to avoid) for 8 years.

But the teams this benefits the most are the dreaded middle. Gone is the nightmare of being good enough to win 45 games and lose in first round each year with the 13th pick each time. Now, an owner can install a long term plan based around where they know they will be in the wheel - with some margin for error depending how large the draft pick groups are. It's different for sure. But for everything you lose doing it this way, you also gain a little something vs the standard lotto method.


At the end of the day, this is one of those "do you believe in parallel universes" type issues. I know some might not be able to leave convention behind. I also understand the concerns and would not dive head first into this if there was real opposition.

But for all the complaints about tanking - especially in a single season Progressive, I wanted to at least float an alternative, one that the real NBA is actually contemplating to solve their tanking issues.

Posted by robusk on 5/25/2017 11:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cjok1051 on 5/25/2017 10:27:00 AM (view original):
I'll give it a go.

And I'm out.

Strange... Oh well robusk was here first, apparently he doesn't want to be in a league with me. I'm out.

I'm not a fan of the wheel for the reasons Ash mentioned, as well as the fact that not all drafts are equal. Say I'm a terrible team and I finally get the number 1 pick, except I end up with Mike Miller's draft year instead of Tim Duncan's. I mean, bad teams need help for multiple seasons, and if the chance you get to be great again leaves you with a bad draft year, then there's no hope.

I understand the tanking issue in progressives but I tend to side with rebuilding for the future over dumb wheel luck. I mean, to Ash's point, if you really want to spend time and money being terrible for 3 seasons or so, that's your prerogative. It's not fun for the owner, but at least there's a plan behind it.

My main issue with tanking is teams that make lop-sided trades to be bad on purpose and/or teams that don't play their best players or play them out of position. Those are the issues I have with tanking. If you want to trade your best player for some role players that are good in a few years plus a future first round pick, that's a lot different than just cleaning house to try to get the number 1 pick in the Jordan draft year or whatever.

Completely valid. Nothing you said is untrue. If consensus is for normal process, of course we will stick with that. Appreciate the feedback from you and ash.

Posted by jkaye24 on 5/26/2017 9:20:00 AM (view original):
Completely valid. Nothing you said is untrue. If consensus is for normal process, of course we will stick with that. Appreciate the feedback from you and ash.

I support the wheel in real life for the same arguments posted. However, in real life, the end product is still an unknown quantity. Here, they are very known. It can cloud the arguments somewhat.

I like the attempts to curb tanking though. That is good to see. I find lopsided trades / trades with newbies / trading with aliases / trading assets for bullshit future picks that have no real value etc. far more aggravating.

Sticking with this particular line of discussion though, I would support the wheel purely to see it in action, but I don't want to run off good owners for it.

I do not have a lot of experience in progressives, but I favor giving the draft wheel a try. I would rather play in a league where everyone has an incentive to try to win.

I'll give the wheel a try - just cause it's different. But I think it's inherently less fair.