Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2017 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):
By sending a warship to attempt to take an unfinished fort, he orchestrated a war. Let's not be ridiculous and think we'd still have slaves today if not for the Civil War. Perhaps a war was necessary but it wasn't necessary that day.

I won't bother with a history lesson, I might screw it up, but troops abandoned Fort Moultrie in Dec 1860 and moved to unfinished Fort Sumter. There was no direct order from DC to do this. The commanding officer at FM did it on his own. The SC Govt asked the garrison to abandon the unfinished fort. They did not. Lincoln sent a ship to resupply/increase the number of Union troops. That ship was turned away with shots over it's bow. 3 months later, Lincoln sent a fleet of ships to attempt to do the same. Civil War began.

It was a really stupid way to start killing Americans. Again, maybe a war would have been necessary to end slavery(not the ONLY issue but, as I said, I'm not giving a history lesson on States' rights or ridiculous tariffs from DC that crushed the South's economy) but starting it over meaningless, incomplete fort was dumb.

Slavery was the issue. It's why South Carolina seceded. States' rights to own people.

Tariff of Abominations started the North/South conflict. The industrialization in the North also freed them of the need for slaves. Suddenly their thinking became more evolved. At the time, slavery was a necessary evil for the southern economy. Except few saw it as an evil.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with Lincoln manufacturing a war to cement his legacy.

Posted by dino27 on 8/8/2017 3:30:00 PM (view original):
the south is still less civilized......do you know about alabama and george wallace and brown vs board of ed...major league baseball...seperate but equal. lynchings....kkk strong through 1960s....intr - racial marriage ban...etc etc

Ever wonder why there is so much violent crime in the "civilized" big cities in NY, Chicago, etc, etc? Did you know George Wallace died almost 20 years ago? I'm not even sure what "MLB" is doing in this discussion but, nonetheless, I'll ask you if you know what year it is? Because everything else is from half a century ago.

mike....if you were my next goor neighbor i would move.......i think you are a stone cold racist......you are an apologist for slavery...you called it a necessary evil...you my friend are evil.

i have said my piece on this subject...people like mike literally sicken me.....slavery apologists........holocaust deniers.......voter suppression supporters.....it is depressing to share a country with people like that...damned sickening..

You're the dumbest SOB on this site. Stupid is stupid but you set new levels.

I already said the 1860s was a different than 2017. I'm not apologizing for slaving 160 years ago. I'm saying people didn't view it the same as we do today. We became more civilized. You became more stupid but that's another story. No idea where you got holocaust, voter suppression but, then again, you are stupid as ****. So there's that.

anyone that says that slavery would have ended on its own without a war or within 5-10 years without a war is a racist.

I thought you were done. Are you stupid and a liar? Run along, moron.

you're t is for trump.

Your 27 is for IQ. Run along, moron.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2017 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):
By sending a warship to attempt to take an unfinished fort, he orchestrated a war. Let's not be ridiculous and think we'd still have slaves today if not for the Civil War. Perhaps a war was necessary but it wasn't necessary that day.

I won't bother with a history lesson, I might screw it up, but troops abandoned Fort Moultrie in Dec 1860 and moved to unfinished Fort Sumter. There was no direct order from DC to do this. The commanding officer at FM did it on his own. The SC Govt asked the garrison to abandon the unfinished fort. They did not. Lincoln sent a ship to resupply/increase the number of Union troops. That ship was turned away with shots over it's bow. 3 months later, Lincoln sent a fleet of ships to attempt to do the same. Civil War began.

It was a really stupid way to start killing Americans. Again, maybe a war would have been necessary to end slavery(not the ONLY issue but, as I said, I'm not giving a history lesson on States' rights or ridiculous tariffs from DC that crushed the South's economy) but starting it over meaningless, incomplete fort was dumb.

Slavery was the issue. It's why South Carolina seceded. States' rights to own people.

Tariff of Abominations started the North/South conflict. The industrialization in the North also freed them of the need for slaves. Suddenly their thinking became more evolved. At the time, slavery was a necessary evil for the southern economy. Except few saw it as an evil.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with Lincoln manufacturing a war to cement his legacy.

That Tariff was passed over 30 years before South Carolina seceded. South Carolina seceded because it wanted to be able to continue to own people.

That is what caused the war.

Posted by dino27 on 8/8/2017 4:21:00 PM (view original):
you're t is for trump.

BTW, grammar is your friend. When I claim you're the stupidest SOB on this site, get it right instead of proving me right.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2017 4:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2017 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):
By sending a warship to attempt to take an unfinished fort, he orchestrated a war. Let's not be ridiculous and think we'd still have slaves today if not for the Civil War. Perhaps a war was necessary but it wasn't necessary that day.

I won't bother with a history lesson, I might screw it up, but troops abandoned Fort Moultrie in Dec 1860 and moved to unfinished Fort Sumter. There was no direct order from DC to do this. The commanding officer at FM did it on his own. The SC Govt asked the garrison to abandon the unfinished fort. They did not. Lincoln sent a ship to resupply/increase the number of Union troops. That ship was turned away with shots over it's bow. 3 months later, Lincoln sent a fleet of ships to attempt to do the same. Civil War began.

It was a really stupid way to start killing Americans. Again, maybe a war would have been necessary to end slavery(not the ONLY issue but, as I said, I'm not giving a history lesson on States' rights or ridiculous tariffs from DC that crushed the South's economy) but starting it over meaningless, incomplete fort was dumb.

Slavery was the issue. It's why South Carolina seceded. States' rights to own people.

Tariff of Abominations started the North/South conflict. The industrialization in the North also freed them of the need for slaves. Suddenly their thinking became more evolved. At the time, slavery was a necessary evil for the southern economy. Except few saw it as an evil.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with Lincoln manufacturing a war to cement his legacy.

That Tariff was passed over 30 years before South Carolina seceded. South Carolina seceded because it wanted to be able to continue to own people.

That is what caused the war.

Simplistic way of viewing things but we've had this discussion before. I won't bother again.

Aw c'mon flamethrowers......... in the spirit of Cum baa Ya.............. lol

How's about some more Tom Petty lyrics.

Even before my father's fathers
They called us all rebels
Burned our cornfields
And left our cities level
I can still see the eyes
Of those blue bellied devils
When I'm walking round tonight
Through the concrete and metal.
Hey, hey, hey
I was BORN a Rebel.

Anyway, I only brought it up because Lincoln was tied with Washington. Killing the most Americans in a war without exploring, and re-exploring, all options doesn't make one a great President.

If Trump decided to invade N Korea tomorrow, people would be up in arms over "boots on the ground" and "American lives lost" despite KNOWING NK is a threat. Pretty sure the southern states weren't going to blow up NY in 1861. Unlikely they even thought about it. Almost positive NK would do it tomorrow if they could.