Interestingly enough, I quite agree with both your first and last paragraphs......... word for word!

Regarding the 2nd paragraph....... a lot of things occurred in those 3 months that you are omitting from the equation, but the facts as listed are correct, if I remember my history well enough. (that's a probably)

So why do we seem so hell bent on having that (basically) same battle again these days?
I'll refrain from conjecture but we need to do some (collective) more reading and thinking about things. Civic duty and all that.

Took it perhaps, but rather reluctantly I think is a fuller picture, no?

Well, they didn't have email or texts back then so news moved slow. I'm not sure "a lot" would be correct but of course there were negotiations of sorts. I believe the Union troops were allowed to leave without resistance. SC wasn't intent of starting a war but continuing a way of life. Again, slavery would end organically. And I get not wanting to wait that long. But killing Americans did not have to start in 4/1861.

And, yes, there was a bigger picture. I'm just bothered by the fact that Lincoln is looked at as a great President when patience, and lack of loss of American life, could have been used. Dems have fits over Dubya killing American soldiers by sending them to fight a war that was not ours. Lincoln's war was for human decency but it wasn't for American people.

Fore!

"I'm just bothered by the fact that Lincoln is looked at as a great President when patience, and lack of loss of American life, could have been used"

This is a very valid point Sir, and I quite understand and sympathize with that viewpoint...... which is partly (one reason) why Lincoln did NOT get my vote in this little poll here!

The "problem" is people view the 1800s from today's viewpoints. "Own people? WTF?" Slaves were nothing more than livestock back then. They bred them to make better one. Seems insane today. But, in 1840, that's what was done. Hell, you could challenge people to duels with no repercussions(assuming you won) back then.

You really think Jefferson viewed Sally H. as "livestock"...............?

My favorite recent Tom Petty lyric

"Poor Tom Jefferson, loved the little maid out back.........
Midnight Creepin' out to the servant's shack"......

Historical Rock - N - Roll lol

it is outrageous to believe that slavery would have ended without war.....it would have continued into the 1900s without war...probably past ww1......even after the war look at the south.

That's ridiculous. People became more civilized at time moved on.

We're moving in the other direction now.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):
By sending a warship to attempt to take an unfinished fort, he orchestrated a war. Let's not be ridiculous and think we'd still have slaves today if not for the Civil War. Perhaps a war was necessary but it wasn't necessary that day.

I won't bother with a history lesson, I might screw it up, but troops abandoned Fort Moultrie in Dec 1860 and moved to unfinished Fort Sumter. There was no direct order from DC to do this. The commanding officer at FM did it on his own. The SC Govt asked the garrison to abandon the unfinished fort. They did not. Lincoln sent a ship to resupply/increase the number of Union troops. That ship was turned away with shots over it's bow. 3 months later, Lincoln sent a fleet of ships to attempt to do the same. Civil War began.

It was a really stupid way to start killing Americans. Again, maybe a war would have been necessary to end slavery(not the ONLY issue but, as I said, I'm not giving a history lesson on States' rights or ridiculous tariffs from DC that crushed the South's economy) but starting it over meaningless, incomplete fort was dumb.

Slavery was the issue. It's why South Carolina seceded. States' rights to own people.

the south is still less civilized......do you know about alabama and george wallace and brown vs board of ed...major league baseball...seperate but equal. lynchings....kkk strong through 1960s....intr - racial marriage ban...etc etc

widespread voter suppression...poll taxes....literacy tests...etc etc....learn african american history.

a true controversey is should truman have dropped the first bomb but not the second......both bombs.....or no bombs........im of the opinion that the 2nd bomb was not necessary and a form of genocide.