show me some teams that are 520 ovr rated that have made the final four in the past several seasons.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 9:09:00 AM (view original):
Or it would make the experience worse. Veteran users beat new users regardless of the rules/guidelines. FACT!!!

I am not, I have played under 2.0 and 3.0. I know some things are better this time around and I would not want to go back. I know there are flipped odds for recruits but competition is better this way around in recruiting at D1, which is good. AP prevents super classes these days, which is good. Scouting, the way it was implemented is complicated, but more logical and a tougher challenge, it's good.

I don't like D3 and D2 not being able to sign players from the start like D1, fix this. I want the complete experience.

I haven't been able to put much time into my teams this year with work... I am on autopilot. But recruiting I have always enjoyed and I want it to be the best possible so you feel in it from the start to the finish.

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 10:06:00 AM (view original):
show me some teams that are 520 ovr rated that have made the final four in the past several seasons.

If you show me a new player that made the final four in the past several seasons... but surely you're not suggesting new players should expect to make the final four in their first season, right?

Leave your red herrings aside and stay with me for a second, benis. I said OVR means little in how a game plays out. You said that's inaccurate. You're mistaken. What matters in how a game plays out is the core ratings of the players getting significant minutes, the matchups within the game, and the game plans employed.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/22/2017 10:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 6/22/2017 10:06:00 AM (view original):
show me some teams that are 520 ovr rated that have made the final four in the past several seasons.

If you show me a new player that made the final four in the past several seasons... but surely you're not suggesting new players should expect to make the final four in their first season, right?

Leave your red herrings aside and stay with me for a second, benis. I said OVR means little in how a game plays out. You said that's inaccurate. You're mistaken. What matters in how a game plays out is the core ratings of the players getting significant minutes, the matchups within the game, and the game plans employed.

LOL!!!

Posted by zorzii on 6/22/2017 10:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 9:09:00 AM (view original):
Or it would make the experience worse. Veteran users beat new users regardless of the rules/guidelines. FACT!!!

I am not, I have played under 2.0 and 3.0. I know some things are better this time around and I would not want to go back. I know there are flipped odds for recruits but competition is better this way around in recruiting at D1, which is good. AP prevents super classes these days, which is good. Scouting, the way it was implemented is complicated, but more logical and a tougher challenge, it's good.

I don't like D3 and D2 not being able to sign players from the start like D1, fix this. I want the complete experience.

I haven't been able to put much time into my teams this year with work... I am on autopilot. But recruiting I have always enjoyed and I want it to be the best possible so you feel in it from the start to the finish.

Now at least we're being honest, and dropping the pretense of concern for protecting new player led teams from established D3 dynasties. This is about you not wanting to wait until the final day of recruiting to sign D1 rejects, but feeling like you have to in order to keep up with the OVR Jones's.

The good news is that you don't have to wait until the last day to recruit, if you don't want to. I scout D2 recruits in Texas most years as cheap backups, and every year I do, I see a half dozen or more that would have fit in on my team just fine, but end up going to Sims or smart D3 coaches when I pass on them.

Sorry, I don't buy in to this whole "OVR means nothing" thing. D3/D2/D1 recruits are separated out as such because of OVR ratings, and there's a reason everyone looks for D1 recruits. It's a non-starter.

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, I don't buy in to this whole "OVR means nothing" thing. D3/D2/D1 recruits are separated out as such because of OVR ratings, and there's a reason everyone looks for D1 recruits. It's a non-starter.

I didn't say it means nothing. I said it means little in how a game plays out. That's true, and it's always been true.

The argument benis is trying to make is that the gap between the OVRs of established dynasties and teams new players have access to is larger (which I don't dispute) and that this is an existential problem in and of itself (which I do dispute). Neither he nor zorzii have answered the clarifying questions I've offered up a number of times. Are you beating sims by more points than you used to, and if so, why is that a problem? Are you beating new players by more points than you used to, and if that's a problem for you, what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting?

My contention is that a new player doesn't care whether he gets beaten by an established dynasty by 40 points, or by 50 points. What s/he cares about is whether there are existing barriers to their team recruiting the same caliber of recruits that the dynasties have access to.

"what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting? "

You mean before they quit playing the game for good after trying it out for 1 season?

If the game is designed in a way that it's the responsibility of the current users to ensure that new users understand how to play then it's a poorly designed game.

Do we have any evidence that users are quitting the game for good after 1 season because they can't figure it out? Is there even the remotest possibility that they just didn't enjoy it?

As a painful anecdote, my ACU team last year was easily the best I've had. By OVR, yes, but by overall dominance. If I recall, we beat the eventual champs on the road in non conference by double digits.

But UPJ had our number. We slipped by them by a single point at home in exhibition, and they beat us in the sweet 16. Our end of season OVR was in the 720 range, with 80 defense. I want to say UPJ OVR was maybe in the 650 range. We had the OVR and the cores. They had the matchups. Great ratings in the right places, from the right players.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/22/2017 11:06:00 AM (view original):
Do we have any evidence that users are quitting the game for good after 1 season because they can't figure it out? Is there even the remotest possibility that they just didn't enjoy it?

Yeah of course they didn't enjoy it. Maybe they didn't even really give it an honest attempt. Maybe it's because you can't recruit for your first season. Maybe it's the dead time. Maybe it's losing every single game to a human. Maybe recruiting and scouting is confusing. Maybe it's the high initial cost.

Tons and tons of potential reasons that we all can agree and disagree about.

I played one season of Gridiron Dynasty(.733) and one season of Sim Hockey(.395). Despite varying levels of success/failure, I did not like either game. So, IMO, "They're getting beat up and quitting after one season" doesn't hold a lot of water.

And, as shoe said, going 4-23 is pretty much the same if you average losing by 4 or 40.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/22/2017 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mbriese on 6/22/2017 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, I don't buy in to this whole "OVR means nothing" thing. D3/D2/D1 recruits are separated out as such because of OVR ratings, and there's a reason everyone looks for D1 recruits. It's a non-starter.

I didn't say it means nothing. I said it means little in how a game plays out. That's true, and it's always been true.

The argument benis is trying to make is that the gap between the OVRs of established dynasties and teams new players have access to is larger (which I don't dispute) and that this is an existential problem in and of itself (which I do dispute). Neither he nor zorzii have answered the clarifying questions I've offered up a number of times. Are you beating sims by more points than you used to, and if so, why is that a problem? Are you beating new players by more points than you used to, and if that's a problem for you, what are you doing to help them understand that they have access to the same recruits you are getting?

My contention is that a new player doesn't care whether he gets beaten by an established dynasty by 40 points, or by 50 points. What s/he cares about is whether there are existing barriers to their team recruiting the same caliber of recruits that the dynasties have access to.

A new player will care that they're consistently losing to teams that have OVRs 100+ points higher than them consistently. If they go through recruiting and pick up a bunch of guys between 400-450 OVR and the other human teams in the conference are pulling 500-600 OVR players, there's a solid chance that they're going to give up. There's nothing in the "Help" opening section about recruiting that tells them whether or not it's possible for a D3 team to get D1 recruits. Yes, they can read the forums and blah blah blah, but nobody jumps into the game and becomes a hardcore committed user in their first season.

If you make it so that D3 teams can only recruit D3 players, it'll still be difficult for newbies to recruit (hell, even more difficult given the smaller pool), but at least they'll end up with the dilemma of "crap, I saw that guy but couldn't get him, how do I get him" rather than "where the hell are these guys finding these players".

You can't recruit in your first season. New users aren't pulling in 400-450 as compared to 500-600. If you don't renew before the 2nd session, you don't know what everyone else pulled in.

"but at least they'll end up with the dilemma of "crap, I saw that guy but couldn't get him, how do I get him" rather than "where the hell are these guys finding these players"

I think this is spot on.